D&D 5E Is Duellist style too good without feats.

[dregntael]

What does calculating percentages tell u Ts? The baselines are different. Wouldn't a focus on the actual numbers be more useful?

No, for my second post I took the same baseline for all percentages (chainmail + greatsword with no fighting style). Using percentages feels easier to compare different effects like +dmg and +hit, but you can just multiply with the baseline DPR to get absolute numbers if you prefer.

And I'd add what seems to be missed in regard to Defense style, is that the plus 1 only matters if you end up needing it and by how often you end up needing it. Being 8-13% more survivable doesn't matter all that much unless that's the difference between staying on your feet or going down.

So while the earlier poster was right in that +1AC is theoretically better for someone who already has a high AC, that character may already be survivable enough.

The same argument holds for damage, though: if you already have a lot of damage, then you run more risk of overkill, so getting even more damage is not that useful. This is another difference between dueling and archery that's ignored in my comparison: the +hit from archery has less chance of overkill (but does run the risk of being redundant against very low ACs).

 

[Zardnaar]

I’m playing in a campaign right now - my Teifling Paladin (with Hellish Rebuke) and the owlman (aarakora reskin) fighter have this. The owlman’ s AC is 21, at it hurts to target me if you get past the protection. Our DM hates us in dungeons.

Nice.

 

[dregntael]

I’m playing in a campaign right now - my Teifling Paladin (with Hellish Rebuke) and the owlman (aarakora reskin) fighter have this. The owlman’ s AC is 21, at it hurts to target me if you get past the protection. Our DM hates us in dungeons.

Against the Tarrasque, AC 21 will help you exactly as much as AC 10. Maybe your DM is just not using the right enemies?

 

[Don Durito]

Thinking about some more this I'm tempted to just rule you can't use the finesse weapon feature with a shield and leave it with that.

It does mean that the fighting style Duellist was no doubt originally intended to enable, a single weapon shiedless swashbuckling rapier wielder becomes sub optimal. But there's no room to improve it without making the Great-Axe user look bad.

And I'm personally not particularly bothered about swashbuckling fighters being suboptimal. It's not something I feel a particularly inclined to encourage anyway.

 

[delph]

I’m playing in a campaign right now - my Teifling Paladin (with Hellish Rebuke) and the owlman (aarakora reskin) fighter have this. The owlman’ s AC is 21, at it hurts to target me if you get past the protection. Our DM hates us in dungeons.

I have Halfling Fighter (now with duelist, but in next level up, I'll change it to defence style) and have 22 AC from last game. But before I had one game where we did fight with 8 flyers with 2 attacks and low inteligence and big hungry - I went in middle, took dodge and after 5 rounds I took one hit. So GM sighed and said okay you'v solved it.

 

[Helldritch]

In many examples of "problems" in 5ed is when I see the symptom of monotype encounters. 4 level 4 players, 8 goblins. A piece of cake. Same players, 6 goblins and 2 accolytes with bless and sacred flame (goblin skin) and the fight is not that easy anymore. It's far from deadly but it's harder than just 8 goblins. With the bless, the goblins needs about 14 to hit AC 20 (assuming a roll of two on the bless spell) and with sacred flame, high AC characters will take 1d8 dmg almost every turn (unless that character is based on Dex).

This is where some styles will help a lot. Defense will help the character itself in raising survivability. Protection, will help low AC team mates. Dueling, will help sword and board dealing a bit more damage but not that much. Two weapon style is better but it is at the cost of a lower AC and Great Weapon will help raise the damage by ensuring (well, bad luck happens) a better average damage. Is Dueling so over powered? I don't think so.

 

[Li Shenron]

But it would be a straight nerf to sword and board fighters. So that's the question. Would taking duellist away from sword and board fighters weaken them too much? Do you feel that having that extra damage is important to the classes?

It wouldn't spoil the game as I don't think s&b fighters strictly need to take the Duelist fighting style. But at the same time I don't see a compelling reason to take it away.

 

[Don Durito]

Perhaps a bit of a soft change is in order.

Increase all the versatile weapons by one step. So long sword/warhammer etc, become 1d10(1d12). Then make duelist style = +1 damage if used with a shield + 2 if used without a shield.

 

[Quartz]

So long sword/warhammer etc, become 1d10(1d12)

Don't you mean 1d8/1d12?

 

[DND_Reborn]

In many examples of "problems" in 5ed is when I see the symptom of monotype encounters. 4 level 4 players, 8 goblins. A piece of cake. Same players, 6 goblins and 2 accolytes with bless and sacred flame (goblin skin) and the fight is not that easy anymore. It's far from deadly but it's harder than just 8 goblins. With the bless, the goblins needs about 14 to hit AC 20 (assuming a roll of two on the bless spell) and with sacred flame, high AC characters will take 1d8 dmg almost every turn (unless that character is based on Dex).

This is where some styles will help a lot. Defense will help the character itself in raising survivability. Protection, will help low AC team mates. Dueling, will help sword and board dealing a bit more damage but not that much. Two weapon style is better but it is at the cost of a lower AC and Great Weapon will help raise the damage by ensuring (well, bad luck happens) a better average damage. Is Dueling so over powered? I don't think so.

It is funny how parties like to be well-balanced between battlers and casters and such, but encounters are often done as single-types. Myself, and our DM, often like to blend encounters when logic permits to make them more challenging. I agree Dueling isn't over powered, but since the OP wants a change I still am thinking of how to help.

Perhaps a bit of a soft change is in order.

Increase all the versatile weapons by one step. So long sword/warhammer etc, become 1d10(1d12). Then make duelist style = +1 damage if used with a shield + 2 if used without a shield.

Maybe I missed something earlier, but why increase versatile weapons at all?

If you find dueling too powerful, I would simply make it a flat +1 instead of +2. It is still useful for S&B types who don't want to take defensive or protection styles.