Is enlightened self-interest Good?

[John Q. Mayhem]

I was reading Khaelis' witch class thread a while back, and he mentioned that witches are often good, if only out of enlightened self-interest; they see the connexions of things, and realize that it's also doing good for themselves. Is doing good things solely becuase you believe that it will benefit you (albeit in a roundabout way) enough to make you a good person? I realize that a lifestyle of benificence and helping others, even if out of selfish goals, might tend to make one good, but I'm only asking about those who act in such a manner out of pure self-interest.

EDIT: Home skoolers spel gud.

 

[GSHamster]

I'd say yes, because it isn't guaranteed to help her. She thinks it will, but she doesn't know for sure.

I don't think it's extremely Good, however. After all, would an enlightened Witch ever sacrifice her life for another?

 

[DanMcS]

I was reading Khaelis' witch class thread a while back, and he mentioned that witches are often good, if only out of enlightened self-interest; they see the connexions of things, and realize that it's also doing good for themselves. Is doing good things solely becuase you believe that it will benefit you (albeit in a roundabout way) enough to make you a good person? I realize that a lifestyle of benificence and helping others, even if out of selfish goals, might tend to make one good, but I'm only asking about those who act in such a manner out of pure self-interest.

Yes, they are good.

There are multiple levels of good. For instance, suppose a man left some money with his buddy, but subsequently died. The buddy has the option of returning it to the man's family, or keeping it. The man's family does not know about the money.

He might return it because he is afraid he would get caught and would suffer negative consequences.

He might return it because denying the family the money would cause them hardship.

He might never consider keeping the money, and simply return it as the right thing to do.

All three of these have the same outcome, the buddy behaves in a good fashion. There are varying degrees of morality involved, but the outcome is what matters.

 

[Doug McCrae]

In DnD? No.

"Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others." PHBB 3.5 page 104.

 

[Wolf72]

sounds like a true neutral ... neutral evil if it involves harming others.

 

[Terwox]

For me, absolutely not, it's neutral at best, evil at worst.
My definition of alignment shifts for campaigns, but I've generally labelled them as good is altruistic, evil is selfish, and neutral is somewhere in-between.
Enlightened self-interest is purely selfish.

Umm, in D&D, they might turn out as good, though. No reason someone w/ enlightened self-interest can't make personal sacrifices to help others... wait, yes there is a reason, there's only a sacrifice if they think they won't be rewarded for it in the end -- if you're doing it for the reward, you're neutral at best, as it isn't a true sacrifice -- just the delay of gratification.

...Uh oh, it's an alignment thread!

 

[nakia]

In DnD? No.

"Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others." PHBB 3.5 page 104.

I have not read the original thread that discusses the witch, but I am not sure how some degree of self interest prevents one from making "personal sacrifices to help others."

The witch could donate money, help sick children, make potions for the elderly, etc. All of these involve personal sacrifice to some degree and all of which help others.

I think it is problematic to equate "good" with "always selfless." Good and self-interest can coincide most, maybe almost all of the time, depending on how one views the cosmos.

 

[LRathbun]

Action does not determine morality, motive does.

Actions motivated by a love of self above a love of others are selfish (Bad).
Actions motivated by a love of self equal to love of others are non-selfish (Good or Neutral, depending on the actions in question).

Just because you are smart enough to realize that some action that you would have done for someone else is also good for you, doesn't make it bad, or selfish.

Likewise, just because you are smart enough to realize that some action that you would have done for yourself is also good for someone else, doesn't make it good, or selfless.

IMO

 

[Michael Morris]

I don't use the standard 9 alignments because I got tired of trying to peg good and evil. Also, it's hard to make a good villian when a 1st level spell or 1st level character can walk up and say "Hi, you're evil, you can't be trusted," or worse, "I can kill you now." Also there are often contradictory assessments of what is good and what is evil.

My own setting has 5 alignments. Each alignment has basic tenents that it holds dearly. It beleives those things are "good." It believes those who oppose those tenents are "evil."

Enlightened self interest would definitely be a Sodrean or "black" attitude (the system has its roots in MtG). Sodrean character believe the worth of the individual comes before the society - that individual rights trump socieatal rights. This is the alignment we may most easily associate as being evil of the five, though that's a dangerous attitude to take because all five alignments in my system can adopt evil methods to accomplish their objectives.

I dig the whole thing up if you guys want me to - its still drifting around the server somewhere.

 

[Mercule]

Nope. Not even a little. "Self interest" is pretty much the antithesis of Good. Those with enlightened self interest are much more pleasant to deal with than other neutrals, but they are still neutral. At best, they are what was termed "evil-hating neutrals" in 1E. At worst, they are an evil person who is smart enough to not make a mess where he lives.

I'm currently playing a NE character based on the idea of enlighten self-interest, more or less. He feels no moral qualms about killing, maiming, robbing, etc. He is smart enough, however, to be aware that any/all of these tend to result in retribution or other penalties. So, despite the fact that he's a professional assassin and bounty-hunter, he's actually pretty decent to hang around with if you aren't his target.