D&D 5E Is It Impossible To Benefit From 'One With Shadows'?

[Mirtek]

But...
From the ennemy's perspective, you went invisible. Most invisibility powers let you move as you want. Where are you now? No need to hide. You're invisible.

Yet that is not how it works from the rules perspective. From the rules perspective the enemy still knows exactly where you are.

 

[Corwin]

Actually, if you want to get technical, "from the rules perspective" the DM determines if the guards A) see you, B) do not see you, or C) it is uncertain and consults the dice as (s)he deems appropriate.

 

[Helldritch]

Yet that is not how it works from the rules perspective. From the rules perspective the enemy still knows exactly where you are.

Nope, he knows exactly where you were. That makes all the difference. You are still invisible to everyone. If the warlock and his enemy are alone in a room. I would give the baddy a chance to strike at the warlock. But in a case of combat heavy environment... nope. And you need a really good knowledge of what/which enemy you are up against to be convinced that the warlock did not move at all.

Otherwise you can not assume that the warlock is a warlock. You can't even be sure that he used that special ability and nothing else. In a world of magic nothing is ever took for granted.

And even with complete knowledge of that warlock (and not warlocks in general), I would make the enemy strike the warlock at disadvantage. If he should miss, he would be convinced that the warlock is not there anymore. Dang he cast invisibility or took a potion. Or was it a ring?

And by the way, I hate warlocks. Eldritch blast is way over powered for the versatility the warlock has as a caster. But I would not diminish this ability out of spite. The warlock using that is stuck in place.

Yes he is not hidden per say. The rules are relatively clear on that. But he is invisible. For all intent and purpose, that is more than enough to make this a good, but not a great ability (which can be used at will).

 

[Mirtek]

Nope, he knows exactly where you were. That makes all the difference. You are still invisible to everyone. If the warlock and his enemy are alone in a room. I would give the baddy a chance to strike at the warlock. But in a case of combat heavy environment... nope. And you need a really good knowledge of what/which enemy you are up against to be convinced that the warlock did not move at all.

Otherwise you can not assume that the warlock is a warlock. You can't even be sure that he used that special ability and nothing else.

No, doesn't matter. You don't need to know it's a warlock, since it's not different with any other kind of invisibiilty. Wizard, sorcerer, cleric, whatever. Unless the invisible enemy makes a better stealth check than your pecerption you are perfectly aware where the invisible enemy is at any time. Move or not moving, you automatically know it.

Ring, potion, invocation, spell it's all the same.

 

[Helldritch]

No, doesn't matter. You don't need to know it's a warlock, since it's not different with any other kind of invisibiilty. Wizard, sorcerer, cleric, whatever. Unless the invisible enemy makes a better stealth check than your pecerption you are perfectly aware where the invisible enemy is at any time. Move or not moving, you automatically know it.

Ring, potion, invocation, spell it's all the same.

No need to make a stealth check in a room with combat. Perception is not a trump against everything. If the invisible opponent tries to move around, yes the perception check (if the room is silent) will enable you to determine with a good approximation where your opponent is. To make a perception check you need to oppose it to something stealth. With your perception you won't see where the opponent is but you will hear it. Or maybe he will leave a foot print. No move means no stealth check. The perception roll should be a phony one made at disadvantage.

Take the example of an episode of Buffy. She was fighting an invisible opponent. She was taking quite a beating until she told Cordelia to shut up. She (in game terms) made a perception roll to hear where the opponent was moving and she then hit her opponent hard as the enemy missed her stealth check, thus enabling dear Buffy to win.

Silence is required to make a perception check. With only one sense to rely on (hearing), you are at a disadvantage on the check.
Perception is not detect invisibility or true seeing. It's not an all seeing eye that will enable you to circumvent anything that you want. All you take into account is that you always know what the enemy did. Well, sorry for you but you can never be sure of what was done. You can guess, but you can't be sure. Did he just misty step backward out of the room and stealthily move aside and hid in the corridor? Did he just quaffed a potion of invisibility? Did he teleported or simply phased in the etheral border?

And what are your chances to detect an unmoving invisible object? Pretty hard, almost impossible. That should imply a DC 20 with disadvantage. The same should apply with the warlock. But if you succeed, he's toast.

 

[Mirtek]

No need to make a stealth check in a room with combat.

Per 5e rules you do.

Perception is not a trump against everything.

It is a trump against stealth. And without adding a stealth check on top of "merely" being invisible everybody automaticall knows where the invisible guy is, no perception required.

No move means no stealth check.

No stealth check means everybody knows where you are, invisble or not

Take the example of an episode of Buffy.

Which has no bearing on how strange 5e rules treat being invisible

All you take into account is that you always know what the enemy did. Well, sorry for you but you can never be sure of what was done. You can guess, but you can't be sure. Did he just misty step backward out of the room and stealthily move aside and hid in the corridor? Did he just quaffed a potion of invisibility? Did he teleported or simply phased in the etheral border?

Since you still automatically know where his invisible self is, you can answer all of this with certainty.

And what are your chances to detect an unmoving invisible object? Pretty hard, almost impossible.

Per 5e stealth rule pretty much 100% if the unmoving invisible guy did not make a stealth check in addition of turning invisible

 

[S'mon]

Actually, if you want to get technical, "from the rules perspective" the DM determines if the guards A) see you, B) do not see you, or C) it is uncertain and consults the dice as (s)he deems appropriate.

Yeah, I think the actual 5e RAW and RAI is "the GM decides". But unfortunately there are some rules on Hide which imply that anyone not taking a Hide action (with cover/concealment) is auto-spotted. It would be nice to have clarification that this is not the intent (even in combat - out of combat it seems clearer that "GM decides" is the RAW).

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I think the ability's description "When you are in an area of dim light or darkness, you can use your action to become invisible until you move or take an action or a reaction." is very clear and there's no two ways to interpret it, so don't see the need to ask JC?

It is clear. It also is weird. Hence the desire for clarification on the intent of the rule.

 

[Helldritch]

PHB p177
Stealth: You make a stealth check when you attempt to conceal yourself from ennemies, slink past guards, slip away withouth being noticed or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard.

Hiding: yaddi yadda... An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and still has to stay quiet.

PHB p291
Invisible: An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscure. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any track it leaves.
Attacks against the invisible creature have disadvantage...

Let's start: Part of the hide action is trying to not being seen or heard.
If you don't move, you don't make noise. Yes you breathe, that is why I would allow a check. If the room/zone is full of other noises, I would impose disadvantage on the check.

So
Yes the attacker will try to find you.
Yes he will be entitled to make a perception check.

No he does not know exactly where you are. But he surely knows where you were. He has to rely on his hearing to locate you but you don't move so you don't make noise. Again a perception check against a set DC 13? (in a noise filled zone maybe 20?) made at disadvantage in a room with combat going on.

The attacker can always attack your last known position. But he can't be sure you're there.

Here are the few possible scenari
1) Albrech the warlock is in deep sh**t. His friends around him are all locked in combat and the orc chieftain is coming right at him. He uses his ability to merge with shadows.
From the orc point of view:
A) The target disapeared.
B) Other ennemies are around.
He can either try to hit something that might or might not be there. Or simply change target.
I would not even make a check in that case. The orc will change target for sure. Not that he is stupid. It is simply more efficient for him.

2) Albrech the warlock is in deep sh**t. The damn group of heroes are fighting his minions and the do gooders are wining. The big hairy barbarian is coming his way. He uses his ability to merge with shadows.
From the barbarian's perspective:
A) the evil warlock disapeared.
B) Other ennemies are around.
The warlock must not escape. He strikes where the warlock was last seen. A miss. Where is he? He swings again just in case.
He hits: Good now I know he's there. The evil warlock is toast.
He misses again: The warlock is obviously not there. Time for a perception check.
-Now our barbarian rolls the famous perception check. I would make him roll at disadvantage since there is combat around him. I would personnaly set the DC at 20. Hearing someone breathing in a room full of screams and weapons clashing tends to cover breathing sounds...
-Success. Good. Now the barbarian is absolutely sure that the warlock is there.
-Failure. Now the barbarian does not know where the warlock is. He must have moved away.

3) Albrech the warlock is in deep sh**t. The guards are coming his way and he's clearly not where he should be. He uses his ability to merge with shadows.
From the guards' perspective:
A) The thief/spy disapeared
B) No combat around. Time to be extra cautious.
Now our guards will try to listen to where our warlock is.
Hearing some breathing in a quite place should not be hard. I would set the DC at 13 but no higher. It should be between easy and medium.
The guards keep quiet. The check is made. No disadvantage.
-Success: The guards hear Albrech's breathing. They attack where he stands still at disadvantage but Albrech is now deeper in deep sh**t.
-Failure: The guards hear nothing. They start searching around keeping an eye on each other in case the thief/spy tries to attack one of them from behind.
Now they both make perception check. Both at disadvantage. If they succeed. Albrech is again deeper in than what he was earlier.
If it's a failure. Then the guards will move on to sound the alarm. Albrech's problems are not over but this part is over now. He can breathe again.

4) Albrech the warlock is in deep sh**t. Taking advantage of the festival around he stole a trinket from a noble but the guards spotted him and are now coming his way. He uses his ability to merge with shadows.
From the guards' perspective:
A) The thief disapeared
B) No combat around. But it is a dark alley. It is time to be extra cautious.
Now our guards will try to listen to where our warlock is.
Hearing some breathing in a noisful place place should hard. I would set the DC at 20 but no higher.
The guards keep quiet. The check is made. No disadvantage since there is no combat around.
-Success: The guards hear Albrech's breathing. They attack where he stands still at disadvantage but Albrech is now deeper in deep sh**t.
-Failure: The guards hear nothing. They start searching around keeping an eye on each other in case the thief/spy tries to attack one of them from behind.
Now they both make perception check. Both at disadvantage. If they succeed. Albrech is again deeper in than what he was earlier.
If it's a failure. Then the guards will move on to sound the alarm. Albrech's problems are not over as the guards will put a bounty on his head. He can breathe again.

Notice that in all the examples Albrech did not make a single stealth check. Why? Because he was not moving. Stealth is either to hide or to move while hiding. I my opinion, Albrech does not need to make a check since he is already unseen. He only has to stay quiet. So I allow perception not on his stealth but on his ability to breathe silently. Considering this, I set a difficulty based on my personal assumption. Is it house rule? Maybe. Is it as RAI? I sure hope so. Can I be wrong? I would like to be all mighty and all knowing but yes I can be wrong.

Now, if Albrech is a wizard and tries to move away while invisible. Perception checks would still be made. But against his stealth score. Which makes thing somewhat easier for some characters.

Do I DM suboptimaly? I don't think so. I'm on the hard side of DMing. But I hope that I'm fair.

 

[mellored]

There're 2 big uses for this.

1: Improved dodge. Not only do enemies have disadvantage to hit you, but you also become untargetable for many spells and get advantage on your next shot. Can be combo'd with warcaster and booming blade.

2: Hide in plain sight. You need to take the hide action first (and it's safe to assume anyone out of combat taking any kind of caution will take the hide action at some point), then a second action to turn invisible. Very similar to the ranger 10 ability, but faster and no stealth bonus. You can now ambush someone or just rest safely rest for 1 or 8 hours.
Bonus points if your DM doesn't count it if "you move" when riding a cart or a mount.


This is generally not a good escape ability. Maybe if you have a good head start, multiclass rogue, multiclass fighter, add misty step to get some distance, or Suggest someone close their eyes and count to 10.