D&D 5E Is It Impossible To Benefit From 'One With Shadows'?

[CapnZapp]

One more example of why the Stealth rules need to be junked and redone. They're designed to handle "a rogue ducking behind cover." They don't do any other scenario well.

You could argue they don't do any scenario well. Or, alternatively, that they do every scenario wel..

I'm more inclined to conclude they're impenetrable for a reason.

That reason being: by being unclear and obscure and incomplete and contradictory, every DM can interpret them the way he or she likes.

 

[Shiroiken]

This never came across to me as a combat ability (at least, not used in combat). I figured it to be similar to the Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight ability. You use your non-combat action to Hide (since no one is around you have total cover), then you use it and stay where you are. Hidden lasts until the DM says, so it's not like you have to keep taking the Hide Action each round. Good for ambushes, but not much else.

Of course, RAI might have been for it to end with any non-Hide Action.

 

[Dausuul]

That reason being: by being unclear and obscure and incomplete and contradictory, every DM can interpret them the way he or she likes.

Well, that's one way to look at it. In that case, however, wouldn't it be simpler to just not have Stealth rules at all?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

One more example of why the Stealth rules need to be junked and redone. They're designed to handle "a rogue ducking behind cover." They don't do any other scenario well.

wrong. Just to clarify. Never had stealth rules that worked better.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, that's one way to look at it. In that case, however, wouldn't it be simpler to just not have Stealth rules at all?

Then you would be open to complaints "where are the Stealth rules" "no game is complete without being able to Hide".

All they need to do now is to point to the PHB.

And then duck.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's the same as for magic item pricing and creation rules.

You're being directed to the DMG. When you realize those rules doesn't make sense, and basically aren't worth the paper they're printed on, and are ready to ask follow-up questions, they have ducked already.

 

[MarkB]

Then you would be open to complaints "where are the Stealth rules" "no game is complete without being able to Hide".

All they need to do now is to point to the PHB.

And then duck.

I really miss the stealth rules from 4th Edition.

Not the ones printed in the PHB - those were contradictory, obscure, and even worse than the 5e ones. But the errata'd ones were relatively simple, straightforward and easy to apply once you'd got the basics down.

 

[CapnZapp]

I really miss the stealth rules from 4th Edition.

Not the ones printed in the PHB - those were contradictory, obscure, and even worse than the 5e ones. But the errata'd ones were relatively simple, straightforward and easy to apply once you'd got the basics down.

Do you think they could be written down and applied for 5E?

 

[Jester David]

That is an odd power.

It does have a few uses. First, it's a good ambush ability. Where you can Hide one round and go invisible the next.
It's also good if pretty badly hurt, allowing you to take cover and gain attack avoidance.
And sometimes you just need that advantage on an attack roll.

It's also a really fun social ability, so you can just hide outside of combat. Enter the empty throne room or feat hall, sit in a shady corner, and then just wait.
Generally, in my experience, when you gain a power like that you will FIND uses for it. You will set up situations to take advantage of a power to justify having it. Opportunities will present themselves.

I was wondering how being invisible without being 'hidden' (because you didn't use an action to Hide) interacts with Perception/Stealth.

Being invisible without being hidden isn't that hard to explain.

Think of it at the table. The kobold wyrmcaster moves 30 feet and casts invisibility. Where does the party fighter attack? The space the kobold was, because it hasn't moved. But making contact is hard because the kobold is still invisible.
On its next turn, the kobold moves. Where is it? Well, if it didn't stealth everyone heart it scuttle across the floor, saw bump into a chair, and watched the dusty settle. So they know what square it's in. Because it's not trying to be quiet.

Same thing with the warlock. It moves in shadow, becomes invisible, and you can still hear her breathing, shifting in place, etc. You haven't heard any movement or seen signs of the warlock's passage. There might be some blood dropping to the floor still.
So not hidden. No check is required to locate.

 

[Jester David]

Do you think they could be written down and applied for 5E?

Here they are:


And stealth:


(Interestingly, invisibility isn't *that* different).

For comparison, here's the 3e rules:


-Edit-
and Stealth, which was hidding from me: