Is it inherently harder to be a female DM?
- Thread starter randomling
- Start date
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
I'm bumping this thread to draw attention to it, and because randomling is my friend, and I wondered how the situation turned out.
Ziona
First Post
Guillaume said:
Just to add...I bought/downloaded my first module...The Whispering Woodwind. I'm not sure when I'll actually get to start my campaign (we're currently building a house, so it's rather time consuming...) but I've been thinking about the campaign and I'm looking forward to DMing!
Hope Randomling's situation has improved...
I've seen this kind of thing happen in all sorts of situations for all sorts of reasons and there are a coupla things that I'd like to say about it.
So you are reluctant to say anything because you don't want them to feel like they have to censor themselves around you. But isnt that exactly what you want? Isnt the whole point of the post to talk about something that you wish they had kept censored?
I dunno what it is, but sex jokes to me are not usually as funny as most people seem to think they are... However, it has overwhelmingly been my experience that women tell the nastiest sex jokes, way more often than guys, and I feel uncomfortable because they are just too raunchy. Maybe that's just me though.
I dont know any of the people in your group so its a little hard to give any specific advice. However, I would like to mention that guys are either vindictive sexists or they arent. You say you've been playing with these guys for a while now, you really should be able to tell whether they are sexist dickheads or not by now. Are they? If you didnt think so before then you probably shouldnt think so now. Guys arent that complicated. We arent good at subterfuge. Women see right through us unless we are professionally trained operatives of the CIA. Much more likely is that it never even occurred to them that the jokes might offend you. But if it makes you uncomfortable, by all means, tell them. They are guys. They are not just going to figure it out on their own. And don't feel bad about making them censor themselves around you. For one, its exactly what you want, for two, they won't be insulted by your request, and for three people censor themselves all the time. I tell jokes and stories to my close friends that I wouldnt even tell my brother.
randomling said:
So you are reluctant to say anything because you don't want them to feel like they have to censor themselves around you. But isnt that exactly what you want? Isnt the whole point of the post to talk about something that you wish they had kept censored?
I dunno what it is, but sex jokes to me are not usually as funny as most people seem to think they are... However, it has overwhelmingly been my experience that women tell the nastiest sex jokes, way more often than guys, and I feel uncomfortable because they are just too raunchy. Maybe that's just me though.
I dont know any of the people in your group so its a little hard to give any specific advice. However, I would like to mention that guys are either vindictive sexists or they arent. You say you've been playing with these guys for a while now, you really should be able to tell whether they are sexist dickheads or not by now. Are they? If you didnt think so before then you probably shouldnt think so now. Guys arent that complicated. We arent good at subterfuge. Women see right through us unless we are professionally trained operatives of the CIA. Much more likely is that it never even occurred to them that the jokes might offend you. But if it makes you uncomfortable, by all means, tell them. They are guys. They are not just going to figure it out on their own. And don't feel bad about making them censor themselves around you. For one, its exactly what you want, for two, they won't be insulted by your request, and for three people censor themselves all the time. I tell jokes and stories to my close friends that I wouldnt even tell my brother.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
I've read a lot of crazy stuff in this thread. Excuses for bad behavior seem the order of the day, from "they're just being guys" to "they thought you were one of the guys," to "they didn't mean it," to "it was just a bad day."
Respectfully, to those who made such excuses, I find the whole thing a load of B.S. I'm a man. And I've played with other men and women for years who would find this sort of behavior disgusting. That they're gamers doesn't mean it's less disgusting.
To start off, these guys began by consistently calling their one female member a wench. We all know what connotations come attached to that word. We all know the kind of behavior we'd expect from someone who calls women by that term. To use a modern equilvalent, it'd be as if I turned to any woman and said, "Woman, get me a beer!" It's an insult. Not the worst insult imaginable, no, but an insult nonetheless. Ask yourself this: would you call your mother a wench?
These guys basically took D&D, and used it as an excuse to be disrespectful to a woman. If they didn't get a kick out of it, if it wasn't naughty in some way, they wouldn't have done it in the first place. It's because they know it's chauvanist, and because it can easily be explained away under the pretense that it's "part of the game" that they did it. And the only reason they stopped doing it is because she asked that they do so.
Now they're making sexist jokes. The fact that they haven't up to this point doesn't make what they're doing any more acceptable. The mere fact that they're guys is no excuse. In fact, I'm offended by the very idea.
If you see these people as your friends, then as a friend ask them to stop making jokes about your sex. If they really are your friends, they'll stop and they'll feel sorry that they've made you unconfortable, not angry that you're censoring what they say. If they don't stop, then they don't care, and cliche as it is to say in these kinds of threads: you should find another group.
To make another analogy which I do not think is too strong: I am an Asian-American and my last gaming group was all White. My friends never made "chink" jokes at the gaming table because they felt I was "one of the guys." And I certainly wouldn't have made excuses for them if they had.
Respectfully, to those who made such excuses, I find the whole thing a load of B.S. I'm a man. And I've played with other men and women for years who would find this sort of behavior disgusting. That they're gamers doesn't mean it's less disgusting.
To start off, these guys began by consistently calling their one female member a wench. We all know what connotations come attached to that word. We all know the kind of behavior we'd expect from someone who calls women by that term. To use a modern equilvalent, it'd be as if I turned to any woman and said, "Woman, get me a beer!" It's an insult. Not the worst insult imaginable, no, but an insult nonetheless. Ask yourself this: would you call your mother a wench?
These guys basically took D&D, and used it as an excuse to be disrespectful to a woman. If they didn't get a kick out of it, if it wasn't naughty in some way, they wouldn't have done it in the first place. It's because they know it's chauvanist, and because it can easily be explained away under the pretense that it's "part of the game" that they did it. And the only reason they stopped doing it is because she asked that they do so.
Now they're making sexist jokes. The fact that they haven't up to this point doesn't make what they're doing any more acceptable. The mere fact that they're guys is no excuse. In fact, I'm offended by the very idea.
If you see these people as your friends, then as a friend ask them to stop making jokes about your sex. If they really are your friends, they'll stop and they'll feel sorry that they've made you unconfortable, not angry that you're censoring what they say. If they don't stop, then they don't care, and cliche as it is to say in these kinds of threads: you should find another group.
To make another analogy which I do not think is too strong: I am an Asian-American and my last gaming group was all White. My friends never made "chink" jokes at the gaming table because they felt I was "one of the guys." And I certainly wouldn't have made excuses for them if they had.
randomling said:
I see this problem as a pacing issue and the sex jokes are just a symptom that you should try to move the game along more quickly. The hardest part about DMing is keeping the pace of the game moving. Its a hard thing to judge because sometimes a slower pace is needed to build atmosphere or develop character. As a general rule, I try to keep the pace accelerating throughout a game session. (Sometimes slowing down a bit for a significant NPC/character interaction or to describe a key scene or mood). This allows for some out of game chatter at the beginning, but by the end things should be happening quickly enough that the characters should have their hands full in character.
Sometimes things go awry, however, and I take out of game chatter in the latter hours a sign that I have a problem. Of course the problem with "table talk" is that breaks the mood -- which, in turn, slows the game down further. Sometimes this kind of thing can completely derail a campaing. I consider it lethal.
You can penalize out of character talk in a number of ways. My favorite is to have NPCs react as if the player made the comment in character. They quickly get sick of saying "I don't really say that" and stick to in character comments. Don't be afraid to be ruthless about this. The players may be bummed that they didn't get to express a wisecrack, but they are there to be in character and in the long run they'll be happy you made them stay that way.
But, its not really the players fault. You have the responsibility to keep the game moving more quickly. Players start making jokes when they are losing focus on the imagined action. Keep the narative moving (either through combat or NPC interaction). If you plan on running a combat focused game, you need to practice with the rules to keep the combat moving quickly.
randomling said:
Personally, I would work on corrupting a few close friends into playing. Treat it like an experiment. If they are in a University that prides itself as a bastion of open minds (and which doesn't), chellenge your close friends into playing by suggesting that your are attemtping something a bit subversive. Design a very rules light scenario and run it almost like a LARP/party. You'll be surprised by how many people turned off by "D&D" actually enjoy being in character.
randomling said:
Again, I would take this as a signal that your game isn't moving as fast as they would like. If they are sufficiently immersed in your world, they'll forget about out of character banter. I would work on having some choice NPCs or situations prepared in advance to spring on them next time they start chattering. Another easy way is to have a adventure with an in game time limit. As soon as they start chattering, you can start saying things like "ten minutes go by." If they start to complain that their discourse was out of character and therefore shouldn't effect game time, then say with a grin: "five minutes go by . . . " They should get the hint and start to get focused again.
Buttercup
Princess of Florin
Lord Pendragon said:
Thank you. I don't know why it's ok to insult your "friends" with sexist jokes, but not ok to insult them with racial jokes. Both are offensive. Perhaps the the sexist crap will stop when women cease to make excuses for it, and tell the perpetrators to get bent.
Lord Zardoz
Explorer
The best way to deal with any problem
The best way to deal with any sort of problem in a group situation is to actually say something about it. If your not complaining about it, then they probably dont even realize that they are getting on your nerves.
You can also see this as a sign that they see you more as just another fellow player then they do as the only female player. Most people tend to act more politely around strangers and simple aquantences then they do around close friends. After all, most people dont tell dirty or tasteless jokes around their boss or to the guy behind the counter at the gas station. They tell those jokes around friends whom they are sure wont decapitate them for it.
Make it clear that the jokes bother you, and they will probably have the good taste to stop.
END COMMUNICATION
The best way to deal with any sort of problem in a group situation is to actually say something about it. If your not complaining about it, then they probably dont even realize that they are getting on your nerves.
You can also see this as a sign that they see you more as just another fellow player then they do as the only female player. Most people tend to act more politely around strangers and simple aquantences then they do around close friends. After all, most people dont tell dirty or tasteless jokes around their boss or to the guy behind the counter at the gas station. They tell those jokes around friends whom they are sure wont decapitate them for it.
Make it clear that the jokes bother you, and they will probably have the good taste to stop.
END COMMUNICATION
Ziona
First Post
Re: The best way to deal with any problem
Just wanted to say that you have a very good point. When I posted my frustrations on this thread, the guys I game with read it & responded to me about it. They didn't realize that I had taken their jests so seriously. Some of them have even found some less-experienced players for me to run some sessions for. I got angry and kept my frustration "under my hat" for awhile, but when it finally came out that I was ticked about it, they understood and are now giving me suggestions and have been pretty helpful about my becoming a DM.
How are things going for you, Randomling?
Lord Zardoz said:
Just wanted to say that you have a very good point. When I posted my frustrations on this thread, the guys I game with read it & responded to me about it. They didn't realize that I had taken their jests so seriously. Some of them have even found some less-experienced players for me to run some sessions for. I got angry and kept my frustration "under my hat" for awhile, but when it finally came out that I was ticked about it, they understood and are now giving me suggestions and have been pretty helpful about my becoming a DM.
How are things going for you, Randomling?
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