Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
It somehow loses its flavor when your cat burglar has to use pitons to get over the garden wall.
D&D 5E Is it just me or have rogues lost the ability to climb?
It somehow loses its flavor when your cat burglar has to use pitons to get over the garden wall.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
The first step is the establish that there is actually a mechanical problem with the rules.
'I don't like Rule X' only establishes that for some people it is a preferential issue with the rules.
MarkB
Legend
Specialised boot tips, harness and gloves, however, fit right in for a cat burglar. The kit should probably also include a grappling hook, to go with the rope you'll have in your Adventurer's Kit.
Uller
Adventurer
Okay...maybe my example was not the greatest....hobbity haflings might not be great climbers. But I see folks have gotten my point. Some (most) characters are good at things that are broader than a single ability score. A roguish character should have ways to be good at climbing, a fighter should have ways to be good at intimidating, a cleric should have ways to get good at influencing, etc. Not all characters fit these things. If an optional skill system is the answer that's fine. But I'd like to see all characters have an expertise die that they can apply to a set of tasks based on race/class. Perhaps some classes have a list of things they might be good at and some races have a similar list. Humans might be more flexible and "skill classes" like rogues and rangers have a larger list. Yes, I can easily house rule (and have already...our monk is good at dex based checks and climibing and jumping are dex based for her) but core rules should both be simple and result in characters that generally fit the archtype. Rogues climb. Fighters intimidate, etc. And they should get clearly better at it over time.
Uller
Adventurer
Sure. Climbing requires str. But I have a picture of my daughter in kindergarten at the ceiling of her elementary school gym, having climbed there. At the time I was a soldier in the infantry and struggled to do the same. Admittedly I don't have tremendous str but I'd like to think it is greater than that of a 5 year old girl. She is athletic. The point is, some people are god at stuff and rigidly tieing that to ability scores for most characters is probably not going to cut it.
Ratskinner
Adventurer
Seems to me that this can be fixed with a single line somewhere in the relevant classes (or subclasses) about using Dex instead of Str.
On the other hand, a "Wallcrawler" feat would seem a welcome addition, IMO.
I think a bigger question is whether it needs to be "fixed" at all, since that seems to be of some dispute. I agree that Hollywood has a tendency to make climbing seem much easier that it is in reality, although climbing is far from alone in this regard. (I am personally constantly amazed at how jumping into the ocean or a lake or any body of water in darkness generates a mysterious ambient blue lightsource around the hero. 13th warrior has a brilliant example of a long swim through cave that features no bumbling in aquatic darkness.) I think this is one of those areas where one player's heroic fantasy gets in the way of another player's suspension of disbelief (or vice versa).
Generally, I think it'd be smart for D&D (almost any rpg really) to work such conflicts in such a way that both decisions are possible on a "by table" basis. That's a tough thing with D&D, though, since things ..well naked Barbarians, Warlord Healing, heck HP. ::shrug::
On the other hand, a "Wallcrawler" feat would seem a welcome addition, IMO.
I think a bigger question is whether it needs to be "fixed" at all, since that seems to be of some dispute. I agree that Hollywood has a tendency to make climbing seem much easier that it is in reality, although climbing is far from alone in this regard. (I am personally constantly amazed at how jumping into the ocean or a lake or any body of water in darkness generates a mysterious ambient blue lightsource around the hero. 13th warrior has a brilliant example of a long swim through cave that features no bumbling in aquatic darkness.) I think this is one of those areas where one player's heroic fantasy gets in the way of another player's suspension of disbelief (or vice versa).
Generally, I think it'd be smart for D&D (almost any rpg really) to work such conflicts in such a way that both decisions are possible on a "by table" basis. That's a tough thing with D&D, though, since things ..well naked Barbarians, Warlord Healing, heck HP. ::shrug::
Li Shenron
Legend
Depends what you are trying to climb...
Also, IRL it probably depends a lot on own weight too.
Exactly. Uller's five-year-old daughter is a case in point; I rather doubt she's got Super Climbing Skills or incredible strength for her age. She just doesn't weigh very much! Conversely, elephants are immensely strong, but they don't even walk up hills if they can avoid it. That square-cube law is rough.
Out of the ability scores, Dexterity is the best proxy we have for lightness and agility. IMO, that makes it at least a plausible candidate to govern climbing, as plausible as Strength. Perhaps rogues could have a class ability that lets them use Dexterity instead of Strength for climbing and jumping?
Ah, but you see, your daughter in kindergarten was not built like you are. You could lift more in an absolute sense, I'm sure, but her *proportional* strength may have been greater than yours.
I usually interpret that as part of what the -2 to strength is about. Not just an absolute measure, but also representing the proportional measure.
Since they broadened Rogues out beyond the "we are all cat-burglars" trope to include street-thug enforcers and such, I have no problem with the climbing skill coming from some other source. Maybe there ought to be a cat-burglar choice alongside the bounty hunter choice. It'd make more sense for the cat-burglars to be able to climb than the bounty hunters anyway....
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