is it possible to multiclass?

[aurance]

So can you take, say, Adept power and not either of the other two? (assuming you are 10th level and have taken the appropriate multi-class feat)

Yes, certainly, unless you are going Paragon Multiclass.

 

[Kordeth]

A question on Power-swap multi-class feats. I always assumed you had to take them in order but reading them again I'm not so sure.

So can you take, say, Adept power and not either of the other two? (assuming you are 10th level and have taken the appropriate multi-class feat)

Correct. Note the requirements on the power swap feats: X level, and any class-specific multiclass feats. That's it; no other requirements.

 

[That One Guy]

Yes I actually do, and it dosent take that much time, plus I dont have to complete it up to a PC level, but even if unfinished, it's still a lot more complete and consequent then just some random NPC with unbalanced abilities.

I'm saying this is appropriate for the campaign i'm making, which is obviously NPC based. NPCs aren't just the villain of the week where they fight and say a coupple of punch-quotes and then die. They have agendas, they have political affinities and they want to live, so if they can, they run, and they come back with a plan(at least the smart ones).

Cool. That's gotta' be rewarding. It's not how I'd run a game - but I can see the benefits of it and respect that decision.

Also, I love high dex Fighter/Rogues. Nasty in all the right ways. In retrospect, my other character was a Rogue/Cleric. So, my two characters who I consider 'main' - as in developed back story and played for 3+ sessions are both multiclass.

SO - most people agree that multiclassing in certain directions is more beneficial than others, but Paragon multiclassing is not quite worth it (yet. I think the 4e designers playtest using unreleased material and the fix is coming soon).

 

[Turtlejay]

Not quite true. Utility powers rarely require a stat and some "Attacks" don't, either. (Rain of Steel...)

Orb Wizards with that Swordmage Utility 6 are especially nasty.

Sure, it is worth multiclassing as a wizard just to get some of their pretty dope utilities, but I was meaning *really* multiclassing, which means you are getting an at will, which means MAD is ususally an issue (excpept that warlord at will that lets you enable a teammate to attack). Not always, as has been noted on that board, but a . . .Rogue Wizard would have some MAD, as it is silly to have to boost Dex and Int.

Again, I fully plan on multiclassing, I'm just saying...

Jay

 

[MrMyth]

Yes I actually do, and it dosent take that much time, plus I dont have to complete it up to a PC level, but even if unfinished, it's still a lot more complete and consequent then just some random NPC with unbalanced abilities.

And it should be noted - it isn't really that different from the standard rules for building NPCs (DMG 187-188).

Here are the differences grom using the full PC rules:

1) Full class features and skills. NPCs generally get most of these, but not quite all - no Combat Superiority for Fighters, no Prime Shot for Rangers and Warlocks. They also get around half as many trained skills.
2) Full Power selection. NPCs have much fewer powers - one Encounter, one Daily and one Utility at Heroic, an extra Encounter and Utility at Paragon, and an extra Daily and Utility at Epic. This is potentially the biggest one - since NPCs, unlike PCs, don't need to worry about multiple encounters, they can much more easily go 'nova' on the PCs and unleash vastly disproportionate damage for their level.
3) Feat selection. I'm reasonably certain they didn't give feats to NPCs out of simplicity - it can be one of the lengthier parts of character creation, and often adds lots of little numbers and conditional modifiers. (Which they simply replace with the "NPC level bonus" instead.) The downside is this removes some options, like NPCs with Bastard Swords and such - so I'm of the opinion you can hand out a few key feats if it really defines the character.
4) Paragon Paths / Epic Destinies. NPCs don't have these. Giving them to them is potentially going to skew their power level even higher, and even give abilities that could be devestating in the hands of an NPC.
5) Equipment. NPCs normally only use magic items if you want to give it to them as treasure - they don't need it, due to their built-in "NPC level bonus". If built as a PC, however, they'll have lots of gear - and while this will result in the same overall stats, they will have many more special item powers... and will also be carrying way more treasure than the PCs should see on one foe.

So... actually, the difference is a bit larger than I thought it was. Still, I don't think building NPCs as full-fledged PCs is completely unreasonable - but it should be done with care, especially with powers, equipment and paragon paths/epic destinies.

I have found the standard NPC rules - plus the use of templates for multiclassing and other options - makes for much more reasonable encounters while still being interesting to build.

If you do stat out NPCs using the normal PC character creation rules, you may want to treat them as higher level than they actually are, as their power will be much greater than a normal enemy of their level.

 

[Nail]

Yes, certainly, unless you are going Paragon Multiclass.

You don't need all the feats to go Paragon Multiclass.

 

[MrBeens]

You don't need all the feats to go Paragon Multiclass.

yes you do. He is talking about full on multi classing instead of taking a paragon path.

You don't need all the feats to take a paragon path of the class you multi'd into which is a different thing.

 

[HighTemplar]

You don't need all the feats to go Paragon Multiclass.

yes you do.

Paragon Multiclassing

If you have the Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats for a class, you can choose to continue to gain powers from that class rather than take a paragon path...​

I dont understand why should I PC party composed of a lvl 15 warlord, wizard, cleric and rogue should absolutely OWN a NPC party composed of a lvl 15 warlord, wizard, cleric and rogue.
Makes no sense to me. I do however that this is the way the game is designed, and that only a fraction of your ressources should be expended against an encounter of your own level, but truly it's riddick.
MY PCs are experienced players, they don't go whining when the enemies are too strong, they in fact sometimes choose to face much higher power people because the outcome has chances to be extremele flourishing, but If they see they're getting wrecked and that they aimed too high, they back out and run and risk dying. Thats a realistic encounter. You dont go roam around a dungeon meeting just the right monster for your, you atually choose, upon meeting people/monsters if you think you can beat them, and then do so.

Truly, how is a lvl 15 guy supposed to feel good compared other lvl 15 NPCs of say his paragon class (ex: Kensei PC in a Kensei NPC order) if he knows he has 3 times more powers than them and is simply not playing the same game...

 

[RigaMortus2]

yes you do.



I dont understand why should I PC party composed of a lvl 15 warlord, wizard, cleric and rogue should absolutely OWN a NPC party composed of a lvl 15 warlord, wizard, cleric and rogue.
Makes no sense to me. I do however that this is the way the game is designed, and that only a fraction of your ressources should be expended against an encounter of your own level, but truly it's riddick.
MY PCs are experienced players, they don't go whining when the enemies are too strong, they in fact sometimes choose to face much higher power people because the outcome has chances to be extremele flourishing, but If they see they're getting wrecked and that they aimed too high, they back out and run and risk dying. Thats a realistic encounter. You dont go roam around a dungeon meeting just the right monster for your, you atually choose, upon meeting people/monsters if you think you can beat them, and then do so.

Truly, how is a lvl 15 guy supposed to feel good compared other lvl 15 NPCs of say his paragon class (ex: Kensei PC in a Kensei NPC order) if he knows he has 3 times more powers than them and is simply not playing the same game...

The DM is the one who controls what NPCs a PC party faces. It is not recommended nor encouraged for a DM to "build" NPCs using the rules for making PCs. Also, there is no "Warlord" or "Rogue" in the MM that I am aware of, so no worries there either.

 

[Engilbrand]

PCs and NPCs are playing the same game. They just have different rules. Welcome to the game. In "hero" realities, the heroes are almost always better than anyone around them. It's why they're heroes.
I have made a villain like a PC. It was difficult for the players. If you want to stat some bad guys up like PCs, go ahead. It will definitely be a hard fight, though. It's not an encounter appropriate to their level. The PCs are stronger as it is. I would guess that, realistically, a PC should be able to go toe-to-toe with an equivalent Elite, and have a 50/50 of winning. That's equal. A party of 4 versus a party of 4 PC-statted NPCs is really like sending a party against 4 Elite monsters together.
The balance against normal monsters assumes that they're going to survive with most of their stuff. A battle against an Elite assumes that 2 will survive with most of their stuff. A battle against a Solo assumes that 4 PCs will survive with most of their stuff. What if you want them to barely survive, or some of them to die? They you need higher level things, more things, or templates. What that means is that PCs fall into their own power ranges that are different from NPCs and Monsters.
If you really want to stat up some NPCs that your PCs will face, do so, but realize that they don't give rules for that because they didn't design the game that way.
If the PCs don't fight the NPC, though, I don't understand why you would stat him up at all. My players know exactly what level the NPCs in town max at. I've told them. But that doesn't mean that they follow all of the exact same rules as the PCs. I never mentioned templates or the extra abilities that a random monster/NPC can have anyway. Items? Who knows.
In the near future, there's going to be an attack by a horde upon the town. I guarantee that they're going to hear about things that won't be in the books? Why? Because the edition lays out exactly what its purpose is and it leaves a lot of it up to the DM.