Is it WotC’s responsibility to bring people to the hobby?

[delericho]

To the same level and extent? Pretty much.

Well, fair enough. But the sheer size of D&D relative to any other game basically precludes that. But "Megatraveller" and the "New Imperium" were pretty damn divisive relative to the size of Traveller.

Uhmm... you sure about that? It might be a cultural thing, but I keep making friends and I am nearly 40. But then, I am from Spain, and from the South, no less, and we have a massive social culture there, so it could be down to that.

It may be cultural, or it may be anecdotal. It's also worth noting that people with specific niche hobbies (in my case, both piping and RPGs) are more likely to find new friends in the related areas than those who don't - I've made several new friends over the past decade as well, but I don't recall the last one who wasn't either a gamer or a member of a pipe band.

And yet, none of that is helping the hobby grow. However, it did help, massively, in the 70's, 80's and 90's.

Well, leaving aside that your OP says otherwise, there's a reason it worked then but not now: unmet demand.

Back when gaming was huge, there were only a few companies producing materials, every release from TSR was a huge thing, and it just wasn't enough. And so, when fans produced and shared material, that was meeting a demand that wasn't being met through 'official' channels.

Meeting this demand meant that people stayed in the hobby, and kept the hobby vibrant, and so attractive to new people.

The picture now is quite different. There are now plenty of companies producing materials, but relatively fewer gamers. As a result, even successful products sell in the low-hundreds of copies. Anyone who is interested can find a product on virtually any topic he wants, and thanks to eBay and file-sharing, nothing ever really becomes unavailable. Any demand is almost entirely satisfied.

Meanwhile, gaming has, as you noted, shrunk to little clusters of people. This means that unless those clusters actively recruit, or unless someone actively searches, it's really quite difficult for people to find groups to join. And, of course, unless someone is already a gamer, they're hardly going to actively search very hard to find a group, for a game they might like.

Blunlty, it's much easier for a hobby to grow when it's already popular. And, sadly, those days have passed for D&D, and will never return.

So you really expect WotC to promote the hobby so people can go and buy other games and not D&D...

If they want to survive, yes.

Ryan Dancey wrote long essays on "network externalities" back in the early days of 3e. He noted that if the market expands generally, the market leader gains disproportionately from that, because the most commonly-played game serves as a least common denominator for groups (one guy might like Traveller, another M&M, another WFRP... but they'll probably all play some D&D at some point). Dancey was absolutely right about that.

But a further corollary to his "network externalities" is this: the larger the network is to start with, the easier it is to grow. Because 100 people spread out across a population of 1,000,000 may well never come into contact with one another, but 100,000 people spread out across that same population most certainly will - and the easier it is to link to the existing network, the more the network will grow.

 

[Perram]

Even though I don't completely agree with that (I still think WotC are responsible for bringing people to D&D and not the hobby as a whole), that also doesn't answer any of the other points I have made in my article.

What are players, or what should players do to promote the hobby?

That is a fairly specific distinction you're trying to make here. Bringing players to D&D /is/ bringing them to the hobby. Simply getting a person used to the idea of an RPG, meeting regularly, reading books, buying dice, minis... THAT is the hurdle.

Once they've broken that initial barrier, it is a lot easier to try out a game when all you have to say is: "Well, it's kinda like D&D, but you play space pirates trying to build an empire."

All WotC, or any flagship, has to do is keep bringing new players into playing D&D. The rest is easy.

As for the rest of your points?

I think you make an appeal too often to your own experiences. Some of your points may be valid in your areas, but the first thing I've learned is that every area is different.

A lot of game shops have a vested interest in building the hobby, for instance, and people like myself very actively build groups, and encourage new players to join them. I think this ground level activity is more important at this time than major magazine advertisements which numbers are proving work less and less. (The whole print magazine / newspaper business is in much more of a panic than we are, after all.)

You mention making friends as a pre-requisit to getting new players. This is not my experience at all. I get new players, and then, often, those new players become new friends.

And that is what I think honestly needs to happen here, and I'm not sure it isn't happening! But organized local efforts are what will regrow the hobby. Paying for an advertisement in PCGamer might help, but I think that buying up some radio time that tells people where they can go THIS WEEK in their city to play a game does a lot better.

I've managed a game store for several years, and it is infinitely easier to get someone to buy into a game if you can assure them they'll get to play it. A box of Warhammer minis in their closet does them no good if they never have a reason to take them out.

 

[tomBitonti]

Possibly, but promoting Audi won't lead you to buy Daewoo.

Is the expectation that is up to WotC to promote the hobby that I feel is unfair. I would be happy if they just did what they should properly without having to promote anyone else's games, really.

I agree that a company cannot be held to promoting competing products.

But, promoting a product seems to promote the product segment in which that product resides. While I'd say that WotC doesn't directly promote Paizo, and ought not to be forced to do so, I'd say that, indirectly, WotC will inevitably promote Paizo. Certain promotional activities, for example, being a part of a trade show, are synergistic with the efforts of the other companies at the trade show.

TomB

 

[tomBitonti]

Even though I don't completely agree with that (I still think WotC are responsible for bringing people to D&D and not the hobby as a whole), that also doesn't answer any of the other points I have made in my article.

What are players, or what should players do to promote the hobby?

What any hobbiest does: Take part in events. Help to run non-commercial activity. All to the degree of interest and availability of the player/hobbiest.

Here is an example: Astronomy buffs have viewing events. Those are run by various clubs and local organizations, to my knowledge. I can very well see a telescope manufacturer attending or sponsoring a viewing event, even though there are lots of different model telescopes being used.

TomB

 

[DaveMage]

No, they don't have any responsibility for anything.

Their goal seems to be to maximize profits, and they take steps they believe will do so. That *may* include growing the game or it may not. It's their choice (not their responsibility).

I do think the OGL grew the hobby, but since they botched how they handled it, it didn't help them as much as it could have.

 

[Leviatham]

Well, fair enough. But the sheer size of D&D relative to any other game basically precludes that. But "Megatraveller" and the "New Imperium" were pretty damn divisive relative to the size of Traveller.

Can't really talk about that. I haven't paid Traveller much attention since I left Spain and that is 15 years ago. Only know there was a Kickstarter about it now and, although I didn't find the levels of reward enticing, it was pretty successful.

It may be cultural, or it may be anecdotal. It's also worth noting that people with specific niche hobbies (in my case, both piping and RPGs) are more likely to find new friends in the related areas than those who don't - I've made several new friends over the past decade as well, but I don't recall the last one who wasn't either a gamer or a member of a pipe band.

OK, the point is, have you brought any of your piper friends into the hobby? Or at work? Have you started a group in your local game store? Or in your library?

Well, leaving aside that your OP says otherwise

It does? Where?

there's a reason it worked then but not now: unmet demand.

Back when gaming was huge, there were only a few companies producing materials, every release from TSR was a huge thing, and it just wasn't enough. And so, when fans produced and shared material, that was meeting a demand that wasn't being met through 'official' channels.

Meeting this demand meant that people stayed in the hobby, and kept the hobby vibrant, and so attractive to new people.

Demand can only exist from existing customers, people who already know the hobby. I am not talking about those. I am talking about people who do not know the hobby, or have never been interested in it, giving it a go because the opportunity presents itself.

The picture now is quite different. There are now plenty of companies producing materials, but relatively fewer gamers. As a result, even successful products sell in the low-hundreds of copies. Anyone who is interested can find a product on virtually any topic he wants, and thanks to eBay and file-sharing, nothing ever really becomes unavailable. Any demand is almost entirely satisfied.

Meanwhile, gaming has, as you noted, shrunk to little clusters of people. This means that unless those clusters actively recruit, or unless someone actively searches, it's really quite difficult for people to find groups to join. And, of course, unless someone is already a gamer, they're hardly going to actively search very hard to find a group, for a game they might like.

Blunlty, it's much easier for a hobby to grow when it's already popular. And, sadly, those days have passed for D&D, and will never return.

And part of the point of my OP is that the hobby is not popular because we are not making it popular. And neither are publishing companies.

If they want to survive, yes.

Ryan Dancey wrote long essays on "network externalities" back in the early days of 3e. He noted that if the market expands generally, the market leader gains disproportionately from that, because the most commonly-played game serves as a least common denominator for groups (one guy might like Traveller, another M&M, another WFRP... but they'll probably all play some D&D at some point). Dancey was absolutely right about that.

But a further corollary to his "network externalities" is this: the larger the network is to start with, the easier it is to grow. Because 100 people spread out across a population of 1,000,000 may well never come into contact with one another, but 100,000 people spread out across that same population most certainly will - and the easier it is to link to the existing network, the more the network will grow.

If they want to survive they want to sell D&D, not any other game. Promoting D&D promotes the hobby as a by product and that will give them money and benefit the hobby.

To expect any company will pay to promote something that is not their product is naive.

To leave it sort of on topic, would you really expect Games Workshop to promote wargames so people can buy Malifaux?

 

[El Mahdi]

So, to repeat a previous question, you really expect that WotC will, or would, spend money in marketing initiatives that will benefit other companies and not themselves?

I don't accept the premise of your question.

I believe that WotC doing things that benefit the industry and hobby as a whole, even and especially if it benefits other companies, also benefits themselves.

I believe it's a win-win or lose-lose situation. If WotC promotes an environment where everybody wins, they win. If WotC focuses only on what is good for WotC, and considers anything good for other gaming companies as counterproductive to their success, then they will lose along with everybody else.

WotC benefits the most from promoting a robust and expanding industry and hobby...even more than any other RPG company, and even if those other companies benefit also (and more likely because those other companies benefit also).

They can be the king of a weak and anemic industry and hobby, and have their bottom line be just as small (though still larger than any other game company)...or they can be the king of a large and robust industry and hobby, and increase the size of their bottom line as well (and still have the largest precentage of the market).

It is entirely up to them, and completely within their own control. And they are the only ones who are in this position.

 

[Leviatham]

That is a fairly specific distinction you're trying to make here. Bringing players to D&D /is/ bringing them to the hobby. Simply getting a person used to the idea of an RPG, meeting regularly, reading books, buying dice, minis... THAT is the hurdle.

And is a hurdle we expect WotC to overcome, but do we do enough to overcome that?

Once they've broken that initial barrier, it is a lot easier to try out a game when all you have to say is: "Well, it's kinda like D&D, but you play space pirates trying to build an empire."

All WotC, or any flagship, has to do is keep bringing new players into playing D&D. The rest is easy.

And that is something they do atrociously!

As for the rest of your points?

I think you make an appeal too often to your own experiences. Some of your points may be valid in your areas, but the first thing I've learned is that every area is different.

Which why I asked at the end of my post "What are you going to do about it?". I know what to do in my area, how about in yours? And how about you?

A lot of game shops have a vested interest in building the hobby, for instance, and people like myself very actively build groups, and encourage new players to join them. I think this ground level activity is more important at this time than major magazine advertisements which numbers are proving work less and less. (The whole print magazine / newspaper business is in much more of a panic than we are, after all.)

Indeed. Regardless of that, though, that is the publishers responsibility to use that media, not the gamers. I am certainly not going to spend £1000 promoting D&D in a magazine!

You mention making friends as a pre-requisit to getting new players. This is not my experience at all. I get new players, and then, often, those new players become new friends.

Err... where do I say that?

And that is what I think honestly needs to happen here, and I'm not sure it isn't happening! But organized local efforts are what will regrow the hobby. Paying for an advertisement in PCGamer might help, but I think that buying up some radio time that tells people where they can go THIS WEEK in their city to play a game does a lot better.

And that was precisely my point.

I've managed a game store for several years, and it is infinitely easier to get someone to buy into a game if you can assure them they'll get to play it. A box of Warhammer minis in their closet does them no good if they never have a reason to take them out.

Yep, but if you don't have a game store nearby (and plenty don't), it is down to the players to promote and find new players.

To expect that from the big boys, just because they are the big boys, is both naive and lazy.

 

[Leviatham]

I agree that a company cannot be held to promoting competing products.

But, promoting a product seems to promote the product segment in which that product resides. While I'd say that WotC doesn't directly promote Paizo, and ought not to be forced to do so, I'd say that, indirectly, WotC will inevitably promote Paizo. Certain promotional activities, for example, being a part of a trade show, are synergistic with the efforts of the other companies at the trade show.

TomB

With that I agree. And again, I feel WotC makes an appalling job of promoting D&D, at a small, large or worldwide level.

And so do an appalling job most of the publishing companies I know.

 

[Leviatham]

I don't accept the premise of your question.

I believe that WotC doing things that benefit the industry and hobby as a whole, even and especially if it benefits other companies, also benefits themselves.

For someone who's not accepted the premise of a question, you've responded to it rather eloquently.

I believe it's a win-win or lose-lose situation. If WotC promotes an environment where everybody wins, they win. If WotC focuses only on what is good for WotC, and considers anything good for other gaming companies as counterproductive to their success, then they will lose along with everybody else.

I would love to see the face of one of WotC execs if you told them that.

No company sees work, or sales, gone to a competing product as a "win-win situation". Whether they are or not is a different matter, but they will do their level best to attract people to their product, not to any other. Why should Hasbro see as a triumph for the toy industry when Barbie outsells them?

WotC benefits the most from promoting a robust and expanding industry and hobby...even more than any other RPG company, and even if those other companies benefit also (and more likely because those other companies benefit also).

That is unproven and because of the risk, unlikely to be undertaken. Safer (and wiser) is to make campaigns to promote their own products.

They can be the king of a weak and anemic industry and hobby, and have their bottom line be just as small (though still larger than any other game company)...or they can be the king of a large and robust industry and hobby, and increase the size of their bottom line as well (and still have the largest precentage of the market).

It is entirely up to them, and completely within their own control. And they are the only ones who are in this position.

And again that's where we disagree. I believe it is also down to us players to promote and enlarge the hobby as a whole, with or without D&D.