D&D 4E Is my friend's unwillingness to try 4e irrational?

[Campbell]

Here's how we've always handled situations like these in the groups I've been part of

• Anyone who wants to run a game pitches the game to the rest of the group - detailing setting, play priorities, game system, and major house rules.
• Discussion occurs, pitches might get revised, and we try to reach consensus on which game to play.
• If consensus can't be reached we hold a vote using IRV. Winner runs their game.
• If at any point a GM no longer wants to run the current game or if player sentiment points towards playing something else we start the process over again.

It isn't always is formal is that, but I tend to hold that no one should run a game that they don't wish to run.

 

[Serendipity]

Wait and see what happens when it actually hits the shelves - both for your own game(s) IMHO and to see if he feels this way.
For my part, I make no decision until I *see* the thing, but that's me.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I would point you to this poll (yeah yeah self selecting and so forth, but almost 56%), in which case you seem to be saying a whole lot of people on these boards are foolish in their decisions.

Why does it matter what the survey says?

I've no intention of insulting people who have faith enough in the 4E designers to have decided they're on board before the product is even finished, but doesn't it make some sense not to commit yourself to purchasing a product when you've not been able to view the final product in any way whatsoever? Not in person, not by a review, not in any way at all?

 

[Dragonblade]

Sounds to me like you are the one being irrational and inconsiderate. You're giving your players an ultimatum - play 4e, or else. Can you really be surprised when at least one of them lashes back at you by giving you an ultimatum of his own? Even if you do manage to force him to back down and accept the new edition, his ability to enjoy it will be diminished due to your strong-arm tactics. Nobody likes to be forced into doing something, especially not by a friend.

Clearly nuance is hard to convey in a messageboard post. My bad. I said I wasn't running 3.5, BUT what was unspoken was that if he wanted to DM 3.5 well then I would be happy to play. But I knew that would never happen because he HATES DMing 3.5 more than I do. And doesn't have the time for it. Heck, none of us do which is why all our games are Adventure Paths.

I don't know how it is in other people's games, but we all work full time and many of us have kids and non-gaming significant others. Even though we all love to play, we all view DMing 3.5 as a painful time-sucking chore. So when someone agrees to DM a 3.5 game in our group, you don't question them or demand anything. You basically say, "Thank you!" and fall down and cry tears of joy that someone else has agreed to take on that burden.

DMs are gods in our game. Not so much because the DMs are tyrannical control freaks. But because you don't want them to decide placating demanding players is too much to deal with and to throw up their hands and quit running the game. Its a job no one really wants. Oh one of us might get the DM bug and think we want to DM, but once we start, the 3.5 rules pretty much smack us in the face and suck our enthusiasm away.

And what if he hadn't liked what he had seen, would you still insist that he convert to the new edition? Of course you would, you had already told them that they're playing 4e, no matter what. Stop and think for a moment about the position you're putting your friends in and how you would feel if it was done to you.

Again, I know this guy well so there was little chance of that happening. His only reluctance to embracing 4e was it was an unknown to him. His favorite 3.5 splat is Tome of Battle and he considers SW Saga the best incarnation of the SW RPG ever. Even better than the WEG version, which was high praise coming from him. I know him better than he knows himself. His inner 4e fanboy just needed a little nudge to come out.

Back off and lighten up. It's just a game. Stop badgering and strong-arming your friends. Let them come around to the new edition on their own.

Believe it or not, I'm not a bad guy. No badgering or strong arming. Basically the situation comes down to this: Bob can show up on the same day and time he always does. He can get a free book out of the deal and continue playing with us at NO cost, and NO effort beyond that which he puts into the game already.

The other alternative is that when the current games end, we don't play D&D at all because all of the current DMs are burned out on 3.5. Sure someone might get the bug and decide to start up a new game, but that is not likely to happen until after an extended hiatus. Bob has shown little interest in picking up the DMing reins himself.

So there it is. Play the new edition for free, or step up and offer to run a 3.5 game. Its a no brainer for me, but admittedly, I'm biased. For example, I dislike the WW Storyteller system immensely and I dislike the whole Vampire/Goth RP scene. But if my DM said he was going to run a Vampire game and he would give me a free Vampire: The Requiem book out of the deal if I agreed to play, heck I'd suck it up and play. No pun intended.

 

[Jhulae]

Why does it matter what the survey says?

I've no intention of insulting people who have faith enough in the 4E designers to have decided they're on board before the product is even finished, but doesn't it make some sense not to commit yourself to purchasing a product when you've not been able to view the final product in any way whatsoever? Not in person, not by a review, not in any way at all?

The same way it makes sense to automatically dismiss 4e without being able to view the final product as some are doing?

And, doesn't *someone* have to end up purchasing said product to write a review or at least write well thought out impressions anyway?

The thing is this though: Most of the trend I've seen is that the 'Pro' and 'neutral' 4e crowd will give it a chance even if they're not sure how it will work out, while the 'Anti' 4e crowd don't seem to be willing to try it out at all.

 

[Mephistopheles]

The same way it makes sense to automatically dismiss 4e without being able to view the final product as some are doing?

I didn't suggest that it makes any sense to do that. I was responding to a point that implied simply because the majority of responders to a survey were in favour of a certain course of action that it couldn't be called a foolish course of action.

And, doesn't *someone* have to end up purchasing said product to write a review or at least write well thought out impressions anyway?

Those who aren't in a position to receive review copies, yes, but I'm not sure how that is particularly relevant.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I've no intention of insulting people who have faith enough in the 4E designers to have decided they're on board before the product is even finished, but doesn't it make some sense not to commit yourself to purchasing a product when you've not been able to view the final product in any way whatsoever? Not in person, not by a review, not in any way at all?

At this point, several times per session, people in my group start complaining about a bad rule in 3e and how they can't wait for 4e to come out. It's been getting worse and worse by the month, and by the time May comes along, it will probably be pretty bad. High level 3e is just borked. We're positively drooling over 4e at this point.

I've got more people wanting to join my group than I've had in five years since I ran games in college. As soon as the 4e announcement hit I was getting calls and emails asking if people could play in my 4e game when it was released. These are people I haven't talked to in years.

Worlds and Monsters is one of the best gaming books I've bought in a long time concerning fluff, possibly since Planescape was being released. It has driven me to, for the first time in over a decade, create a homebrew based on the Points of Light concept. I've got adventure ideas all over the place, too. I haven't been this inspired since, again, Planescape was being released.

It's not like we don't know anyting about 4e. There have been development blogs, books, sneak peeks, and endorsements by respected playtesters. None of these things alone is probably worth committing to a switch, I'll grant you. But, there is a lot, a whole lot of reason to believe that as soon as 4e hits the shelves, I will never want to look back. I've got a lot of incentive.

Choosing to switch now isn't some half cocked impulsive decision at this point. Anyone who has been paying attention is very informed about the direction that 4e is going. It has some great designers who have been open about this direction even though they knew not everyone would like D&D to head in that direction. So we have a pretty good idea what it will be like to play in a 4e game at this point.

So I've got a whole lot of datapoints to use in my decision.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'm more than willing to keep playing 3.5 if Bob or someone else in the group wants to keep running a 3.5 game.

Don't let anyone tell you that isn't a reasonable position. If you are baking cookies, you have an absolute right to bake whatever you like.

Anyway, I think I got the advice and insights on this thread that I was looking for. Whether you saw it from my perspective or Bob's, thank you for your input.

If the mods want to close it thats cool with me, but if you gents would like to carry on the conversation, that's cool too.

Classy exit, Dragonblade. Kudos to you, and best of luck.

RC

 

[zjordi]

zjordi, just the man I want to talk to!

I am an American running an English-Language D&D game in Buenos Aires. My players, all Argentine, say that they prefer to play in English, and use English rulebooks, in spite of the fact that Spanish is their native language.

Why? They complain that the D&D 3.5 translations suck. For example, that the names chosen for feats are often words that don't mean what they should.

Now, I don't speak enough Spanish to judge this. But these are six players that I recruited basically at random (off a spanish speaking RPG messageboard) here, and they all agree with this.

Ken

Well, they are right... in a way.

Our translations are made in Spain by native Spaniards, all of whom have years of experience in playing D&D, but they write "standard Spanish" or, as Windows would label it: Spanish (traditional alphabetisation), not South American Spanish. Provided that grammar is one and the same for all of us Spanish-speakers, local vocabulary differs a lot, even to the fact that a common verb in Spain as "to take" (=coger) as in taking a taxi or a bus, in most of South America actually means "to f**k". Please check in Microsoft Word under "Tools/Language/Define" and you'll find not less than 20 "Spanish (something)".

Now, I know that SOME feat names (specially) but also some player ability names, spell names and so on, will actually sound weird to Argentinians, specially if they are very young and/or have not read many books in so-called "standard" Spanish. All things considered, though, I don't think our translations actually suck. I play and DM in a Spanish Web RPG portal called Comunidad Umbria with 6.600+ registered users, with lots of South american players (900+ at last count) and they rarely complain of translations. I assume that the fact of playing together with people that write in all known types of Spanish make them more open to the fact that THEIR vocabulary isn't the only one.

In any case, I'd like you to make a small test. Ask your players for half a dozen examples of "bad" translations and come back to me with them. I'll take a close look and we can discuss why did we chose that particular name for that feat and not other. You can E-mail me directly [zjordi@yahoo.es], since this is clearly an OOC item in this thread.

Best regards,
Jordi.

 

[Dragonblade]

...since this is clearly an OOC item in this thread.

Its cool. I actually find the discussion quite fascinating. I have immense respect for people who play D&D in non-English speaking countries, especially if English is not their native language and they use the English language rulebooks.

I used to live in Japan and enjoyed playing with Japanese gamers. English was not their native language but because they spoke better English than I spoke Japanese they gamed with me in English. They all used English versions of the rules and translated it themselves. I was impressed. Looking back I wish we had gamed in Japanese. My Japanese is decent, but I think gaming in Japanese would have helped my fluency tremendously.