D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form. Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from...

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

Takhisis.jpg


Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.


 

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So was Guide to Hell, yet the Asmodeus is actually a big serpent deity slowly healing his wounds became a fan favorite
Did it? I was unaware. I am aware of the "Jazirian and Ahriman/Asmodeus created the multiverse" story from Planescape. I wonder if the new "Bahamut and Tiamat fractured the First World into all other worlds" lore was inspired by it.

I personally still use the lore for Asmodeus that he was an angel and the original devils are all fallen angels of the god they helped Asmodeus overthrow.
 

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I just realized that "Takhisis is the same as Tiamat" had a different context in 4E, where the walls between settings were more strict. In that edition it was made explicit that each setting had it's own unique cosmology and gods, even the gods of a given setting knew little about other settings' gods and cosmology, and gods with the same name and similar traits in other settings were not all parts of the same consciousness.

Asmodeus is probably the clearest example here.

In the default Points of Light setting he was an angel of He Who Was that guarded the prison of Tharizdun within the Abyss of the Elemental Chaos. Eventually he was convinced by the demon lord Pazuzu to use a shard of the Heart of the Abyss to kill his god. He Who Was cursed Asmodeus and the angels who sided with him, transforming the idyllic plane of Baathion into the Nine Hells of Baator. Asmodeus transformed from an angel to the god of Baator by stealing the spark of divinity originally held by He Who Was.

In the Forgotten Realms, Asmodeus had been around for a long time before finally absorbing a god's power during the Spellplague and using his newfound godlike abilities to relocate the Abyss to the Elemental Planes, transforming the Elemental Planes into the Elemental Chaos.

Baator and Asmodeus also appeared in Eberron's cosmology during 4E, but he was also explicitly not the same Asmodeus as the one from the Points of Light setting or the Forgotten Realms. Instead, he originally came from the plane of Daanvi and was imprisoned in Baator along with his allies, unable to interact with anything beyond their prison until the Day of Mourning. This Asmodeus is also explicitly not a god, but a warlock patron aiming to collect enough souls to fuel his ascension to godhood.

Another example is Bane. Aside from the name, portfolio, and alignment, Points of Light Bane and Forgotten Realms Bane have almost nothing in common.

So, in 4E, saying Takhisis is Tiamat has a somewhat different connotation than it does in an edition with one unified Great Wheel cosmology. The three instances of Asmodeus are recognizable as Asmodeus, but they are also clearly distinct versions of him that have different histories and gods they are associated with. The PoL and FR Bane are even more distinct, but they have enough similarities to be counterparts of one another. With this in mind, saying that Takhisis is Tiamat in 4E doesn't preclude Takhisis from also being her own version of Tiamat with a different history and no connection to other worlds than Krynn.

I find myself preferring this approach as it gives DMs more freedom to establish who a god is in their own personal take on things without having to worry about if what Asmodeus did in relation to the Forgotten Realms would somehow affect him in the Exandria setting. It also prevents any players from trying to argue that what they read about Asmodeus in some Forgotten Realms novel is canon and that the DM should include that detail in an Exandria game.

This last part is a bit of a tangent, but another problem with fitting everything in the Great Wheel is magic itself. I read an account from one DM starting an Eberron game that a potential player was angered when he was told he couldn't play a cleric of the goddess Mystra. The player argued that Mystra is the goddess of magic and oversees the Weave, which all D&D magic is based on (BTW, I feel like I recall seeing a sidebar in the 5E PHB that explicitly says the Weave is how magic works), so therefore if magic exists in Eberron than both the Weave and Mystra do, to.
 
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Mirtek

Hero
Did it? I was unaware. I am aware of the "Jazirian and Ahriman/Asmodeus created the multiverse" story from Planescape. I wonder if the new "Bahamut and Tiamat fractured the First World into all other worlds" lore was inspired by it.

I personally still use the lore for Asmodeus that he was an angel and the original devils are all fallen angels of the god they helped Asmodeus overthrow.
Thing is that this story was not from Planescape. GtH came out of the blue and introduced this nonesense along with a lot other stuff that didn't fit into the etablished canon.

Yet this particular yarn become so popular that it was forced into later products
 

Thing is that this story was not from Planescape. GtH came out of the blue and introduced this nonesense along with a lot other stuff that didn't fit into the etablished canon.

Yet this particular yarn become so popular that it was forced into later products
Oh, I had mistakenly thought Guide to Hell was a Planescape product. My bad.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
OK, I now think we (or maybe just me) have some misunderstanding of what we are talking about.


Is that the official canon? I don't recall that being stated. I was under the assumption there could still be multiple alternate prime planes.

I believe I stated a couple times that I understand it matters to you. However, it doesn't really matter to me for a few reasons:
  1. I don't run published settings (though I borrow from them).
  2. I assume all cosmological lore for all settings and core books is to some degree false / speculation. No one has it correct, it is all guess work.
  3. The tend to work with the idea that the nature of reality is fluid. Not only are all of the settings wrong - they could actually be changing!
  4. I have a hard time understand why people can't ignore the parts they don't like. I do this for all sorts of things in D&D and it works just fine. However, I do understand some people can't do this as readily as I can. I just don't understand why.
  5. Cosmology rarely (like never) comes up in my games. As I DM I like to think about, but it never relevant in game. So it really doesn't matter to anyone but me at the table.

That all seems possible in my understand of the 5e cosmology, but my understanding could be wrong. However, even if in "reality" it is not possible, it doesn't change anything a game perspective. If I am playing in a discrete Eberron game, all the connective tissue in hinted at in the books as not impact on my game.
in 5e, there is one material plane. If you know a location in Oerth, you can Teleport there from Toril.

It affects my game. I’d love to not get told that my perspective is invalid just because other people in this thread don’t care about the cosmology.
 



SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I did see a blog post the other day that was attempting to reconcile cosmology changes between 2E and 5E as all effectively caused by the events of Die Vecna Die. The gist was that the module's events supposedly untethered many worlds from the Great Wheel for 3E and 4E before being pulled back to it in 5E.

Interesting if true, and more than enough reason to have the instigator, Vecna, become a multiversal entity.
So many people hated Die Vecna Die! when it came out.

I was neutral, and thought it had potential, with flaws.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So, is Tiamat a 40th-level cleric/wizard greater goddess?
Sure. "The divine beings of the multiverse are often categorized according to their cosmic power. Some gods are worshiped on multiple worlds and have a different rank on each world, depending on their influence there."

This is consistent with past editions. A god could be a demigod on one prime plane and a greater god on another.
 

I like the one multiverse approach best because of two reasons:

1) I got my start in 2e, and that was how things were presented then, so a unified multiverse is an essential element of D&D to me, and
2) It allows for there to be a shared D&D setting with a bunch of mini-settings (including home brew ones) that can be experienced either individually (like most standard campaigns) or as parts of the greater whole (like in Planescape and Spelljammer).

While I understand that people who prefer to have their world-specific cosmology refer to the entire D&D reality (such as by having creator deities that created everything that exists, as opposed to this crystal sphere and everything in it) might not find a one multiverse approach as appealing (and I can appreciate that for some that is insurmountable), I think it can work reasonably well by keeping in mind that the Material Plane worlds more or less function as their own...well, worlds, most of the time. These great battles and cataclysms of a world's background can easily play out within the expanse of a crystal sphere--which can be pretty big and easily contain dozens of different planets of various sizes, shapes, and other qualities (as described in Spelljammer), and/or within parts of the Inner and Outer Planes that have a connection to that particular crystal sphere and aren't really anywhere near the parts of the planes that are "mapped" in Planescape so to speak.

The Outer and Inner Planes are infinite. Let's say your world has as its Outer Planes "The Bastion" a lawful good place of order and angels, the "Peaceful Realms" a good plane less concerned with order and more with individuals finding their best afterlife, "The Pit", an infinitely descending spiral of devils, and "The Inferno" a primordial chaotic realm of demons. The Bastion would either be a region of the plane that the classic settings know as Mount Celestia (or Arcadia, whichever fits the theme best) that is an indefinitely large "distance" away from the parts that look like Mount Celestia. The perspective that the plane really is The Bastion, and maybe off in its infinite expanse there is a mountain plopped down that some foreign gods hang around is just as accurate of a way of viewing it (especially according to Planescape philosophy) as otherwise. In like manner, the Peaceful Realms might share the same plane as Elysium or the Beastlands, while having a completely different appearance; the Pit might share Baator or Gehenna's cosmic real estate, and the Inferno might view the Abyss (if it sees it as relevant at all) as a bunch of distant layers of its self.

The same applies to the parts of the Inner Planes that a world wants to interact with, and the location of its crystal sphere in the Material Plane--they could be so far distant that someone from another world just wouldn't run into them, or they could be right next door--your choice.

Again, I understand that for some it's important that Sigil not exist in the universe their game is set it (rather than just never come into contact with their world), but for many I don't think it's necessarily the impediment to their goals that it might sometimes seem at first.

Of course, the problem here is that the game has gone back and forth and we all got into it at different times. I can see how it might be jarring if someone started off in an era where the cosmologies were all separate rather than in one multiverse (or there was no established cosmology at all and the idea of playing in a shared settings was abhorrent), and then they stuck them together. I felt similarly frustrated when 3e decided to pull them all apart and kill off the connections essential to Planescape and Spelljammer. Regardless of when we started playing, we got an idea of what D&D is supposed to be established pretty early (not that everyone who started at the same time got the same idea, but there were trends for each phase of the product development) and then they make the ongoing mistake of changing it every edition. I'm more happy than not with the overall way that 5e has done it because it has attempted to be inclusive by restoring the 2e lore, adding in additional lore from 3e and 4e, and including some other innovations. At the same time, I'm still dissatisfied with parts that have been left out (such as the quasi-and para-planes, and good exemplars). I don't envy anyone in charge of D&D today. It is literally impossible to make all of us happy. I think it should still be their goal to try though.

This last part is a bit of a tangent, but another problem with fitting everything in the Great Wheel is magic itself. I read an account from one DM starting an Eberron game that a potential player was angered when he was told he couldn't play a cleric of the goddess Mystra. The player argued that Mystra is the goddess of magic and oversees the Weave, which all D&D magic is based on (BTW, I feel like I recall seeing a sidebar in the 5E PHB that explicitly says the Weave is how magic works), so therefore if magic exists in Eberron than both the Weave and Mystra do, to.
The information has been misunderstood. The sidebar explains that magic is accessed through an interface that "casters have varied ways of naming and visualizing" and that "the spellcasters of the Forgotten Realms call it the Weave and recognize its essence as the goddess Mystra".

It's not that the Weave has been promoted to fill the whole multiverse, it's that the Weave has been classified as the Faerun-specific naming convention for a universal law of how magic works. I would assume it is obvious (but if players are still bringing up the kind of stuff yours did, I guess it isn't) that a god's power does not extend to Material Plane worlds under the sway of different pantheons. Mystra might control this interface (and call it "the Weave") on Faerun, but that has squat to do with anywhere else. I believe what would now be called this interface was supposed to be related to the Positive (Material/Energy) Plane in old Greyhawk lore, and it is the moons of magic in Dragonlance, for example. I'm not familiar enough with Eberron lore to know their theory of magic, but I bet there is something there that fits the bill reasonable well also. On my home-brew planet, it's called the "Breaths of the Dragon" referring to a powerful primal deity.
 

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