D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.

D&D 5E - Check out Fizban's Alternate Cover!

WotC's James Wyatt talked to Polygon about Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, which also revealed the alternate cover, which you can only get from hobby stores. https://www.enworld.org/threads/fizbans-treasury-the-dragon-book-now-has-a-description-and-a-feat.681399/

www.enworld.org

D&D 5E - Fizban's Treasury: The Dragon Book Now Has A Description... And A Feat

Courtesy of Amazon, we now have a description for Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, the October D&D hardcover. The book introduces gem dragons, dragon-themed player options, and plenty of draconic lore! This joins September's The Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and November's Strixhaven: Curriculum of...

www.enworld.org

 

[Maxperson]

OK, I found the 1e Statblock for Takhisis (Dragonlance Adventures), and as I remember it is really weird. It doesn't follow the standard format for Deities and Demigods, or the MM, or any standard TSR monster or deity book. I don't know how seriously I can take this. I mean how did Raistlin, a 40 hp or so mage defeat her. Well I guess because she doesn't have any magic resistance, unlike any other god in a 1e book. This thing is just bizarre.

View attachment 140833

Yes, that is the whole stat block. If it is hard to read, this is what it says:

Takhisis
Cleric/Black Robed Wizard (40th level each)
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Movement: 18" / 48"
Armor Class: -10
Hit Points: 999
Hit Dice: 40
# of Attacks: 4
Damage/Attack: 1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*
* The damage done by this attack is 1d10 times a number from 1-100, inclusive (Takhisis gets to pick the number!). See the prior entry for Paladine fr more information on this attack.

And here is Paladine:
View attachment 140834

Paladine
Cleric/Magic User (40th level each)
Alignment: Lawful Good
Movement: 12" / 29"
Armor Class: -10
Hit Points: 999
Hit Dice: 40
# of Attacks: 5
Damage/Attack: 1-1000*
* The damage done by this attack is 1d10 times a number from 1-100, inclusive (Paladine gets to pick the number!). For example, Paladine may choose a multiplier of 20. In this case, the damage per attack is 1d10 x 20. If Paladine rolls a 6 for damage, teh result is 6x20 or 120 points of damage.

I'm easily amused. It amuses me that Takhisis with 5 heads gets 4 attacks, but Paladine with 1 head gets 5 attacks.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Sure. "The divine beings of the multiverse are often categorized according to their cosmic power. Some gods are worshiped on multiple worlds and have a different rank on each world, depending on their influence there."

This is consistent with past editions. A god could be a demigod on one prime plane and a greater god on another.

I've never liked that, since these gods generally don't live on the Material Plane, they live out on the Outer Planes somewhere. If you go to their divine domain they are greater or lesser or whatever. It may be true that they are a greater power, but can only manifest a lesser power or demipower avatar form on worlds where they have less influence, and that they can only extend their divine influence to a certain level based on their influence a particular world, but they can't personally be a greater power and a lesser power at once. Or at least, if they can, I'm going to need a D&D published philosophical proposal of how that would work, and how it doesn't wreck all the previous lore of the game. (I'm not saying it's impossible to come up with one, I'm just saying I don't intend to entertain the idea without such a proposal backing it up.)

And saying they are "beyond mortal understanding" is also a cop out that wrecks previous lore. In many editions of the game gods could be fought and (at least temporarily) killed by mortals. They walked and talked like people, in addition to whatever powers they had and however many avatars they may have been able to have at a time. The fact that there is a ascending level of power from "barely more than mortal" to "super-deity" is an established thing, so any explanation can't place all gods too far above mortal understanding to make sense of. Some of the books in the Planescape line tried to treat all deities as transcendently powerful, but it wasn't able to really stick with it, because it had all the pre-Planescape lore it was attempting to incorporate that just wouldn't let that fly (worked fine though to say that's the unreliable narrative from Sigil-folk, especially since the books were often flavored in the Sigil Cant anyway). If they want to get creative and think of ways they can make these new claims somehow fit with previous lore, I'll wait and look at it. As of now, I have to reject these terse sentences from the DMG rather than rejecting 40 years of an interesting setting.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The planet of Eberron is the heart of it's own Material Plane. - E:RftLW pg 228

And yet, the designers have also said otherwise, and even if they hadn't, it remains a (terrible) fact of 5e that the entire Eberron cosmology is a soap bubble stuck inside the Great Wheel.

 

[dave2008]

I'm easily amused. It amuses me that Takhisis with 5 heads gets 4 attacks, but Paladine with 1 head gets 5 attacks.

Yes, I almost made a comment on that. That was back in the day when the good guys had to be stronger than the bad guys, so I assumed that was why. I find it interesting there is not description of the attacks.

 

[dave2008]

No, it is not. I cannot fathom how you can possibly not get this.

I can fathom how you don't understand my perspective either, but here we are! Basically, what I am saying is take everything you want, then at some extra spice on top.

 

[dave2008]

in 5e, there is one material plane. If you know a location in Oerth, you can Teleport there from Toril.

That sounds familiar, but is it confirmed for all settings? Do you have source per chance?

It affects my game. I’d love to not get told that my perspective is invalid just because other people in this thread don’t care about the cosmology.

I just want to be clear in case were addressing me: I am not telling you it doesn't matter to you.

You made the comment how you couldn't understand how someone could say it doesn't matter. I gave you some context of why it doesn't matter to me. I do not mean to suggest those are reasons it shouldn't matter to you, I was only sharing my personal perspective. I completely understand that it is important to you. I just don't understand why it is important to you. That is not invitation to explain (can of course if you want) as I just think we have different perspectives on this issue and that is OK.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

The planet of Eberron is the heart of it's own Material Plane. - E:RftLW pg 228

And that's the only place in official 5e material where "The Material Plane" is defined as a singular world. Every other place it's mentioned defines it as a singular plane which holds many worlds, including mentions of Eberron.

 

[Maxperson]

I've never liked that, since these gods generally don't live on the Material Plane, they live out on the Outer Planes somewhere. If you go to their divine domain they are greater or lesser or whatever. It may be true that they are a greater power, but can only manifest a lesser power or demipower avatar form on worlds where they have less influence, and that they can only extend their divine influence to a certain level based on their influence a particular world, but they can't personally be a greater power and a lesser power at once. Or at least, if they can, I'm going to need a D&D published philosophical proposal of how that would work, and how it doesn't wreck all the previous lore of the game. (I'm not saying it's impossible to come up with one, I'm just saying I don't intend to entertain the idea without such a proposal backing it up.)

I look at them like Loki in the recent Marvel TV series. The planes are literally infinite, which means that there is room for hundreds or thousands of variants of the same exact being.

Krynn's Takhisis and Tiamat are both individual variants of the same goddess. Same personality, but some difference like power level, class abilities, etc. Both can have realms on the same plane or different planes.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

That sounds familiar, but is it confirmed for all settings? Do you have source per chance?

It's also implied by all the places in 5e material where "The Material Plane" is defined as singular, and with all the settings of D&D (minus Ravenloft) being said to be on the same plane. Teleport can take you to anywhere on the same plane as you currently are, and Teleportation Circle can take you to any circle you know the code for on the same plane.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That sounds familiar, but is it confirmed for all settings? Do you have source per chance?

It came up when talking about teleport, and teleportation circle. I think this was just after Eberron came out, but I'm not certain. It might have reference in a sage advice answer, as well, but no promises.

I just want to be clear in case were addressing me: I am not telling you it doesn't matter to you.

I never said you were. In fact, no one has tried to say that I'm wrong about what matters to me, that would be extremely strange. What others have flatly stated, and your posts come across strongly as implying, is that my perspective that it is a thing worth discussing and that my position that it's less good for the game than the other options I've posited, is not a valid perspective.

You made the comment how you couldn't understand how someone could say it doesn't matter. I gave you some context of why it doesn't matter to me. I do not mean to suggest those are reasons it shouldn't matter to you, I was only sharing my personal perspective. I completely understand that it is important to you. I just don't understand why it is important to you. That is not invitation to explain (can of course if you want) as I just think we have different perspectives on this issue and that is OK.

What I don't understand is how anyone can fail to see how it is more restrictive to have a single cosmology that all dnd worlds exist within, than to allow for dnd settings to exist wholly in their own cosmology, with no ties to the Great Wheel other than some rare places where a traveler can get to any universe like Sigil.

Like....the new lore coming out, combined with the existing lore of 5e, puts everything that exists in dnd except for the MtG settings, inside the Great Wheel. That is less open than the 4e model where the Great Wheel was just how things are in Greyhawk or in homebrew campaigns that choose to use it, and FR, Nerath, Eberron, Athas, etc, all have their own cosmology.