D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.

D&D 5E - Check out Fizban's Alternate Cover!

WotC's James Wyatt talked to Polygon about Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, which also revealed the alternate cover, which you can only get from hobby stores. https://www.enworld.org/threads/fizbans-treasury-the-dragon-book-now-has-a-description-and-a-feat.681399/

www.enworld.org

D&D 5E - Fizban's Treasury: The Dragon Book Now Has A Description... And A Feat

Courtesy of Amazon, we now have a description for Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, the October D&D hardcover. The book introduces gem dragons, dragon-themed player options, and plenty of draconic lore! This joins September's The Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and November's Strixhaven: Curriculum of...

www.enworld.org

 

[Urriak Uruk]

So how did Vi get to Ravnica, and how was the Cyre 1313 pulled into the Domains of Dread just as the Mourning hit?

There's no canon explanation for either, but it can be inferred that Vi is a Planeswalker and can bypass the crystal that cuts Eberron off.

And Keith Baker has sort-of confirmed Ravenloft's mists bypass it as well; his new supplement "Dread Metrol" transports the entire city to Ravnloft (though he leaves it open that maybe it's instead Mabar). The supplement does seem to be a recognition the Baker is ok with there being a greater Multiverse beyond Eberron, but that the world is still mostly cut-off from it.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, not even a metaphysical impossibility, so much as...like going to a paralel universe in a sci-fi story. It's not part of our universe, it's not contained without our universe, it isn't even directly tied to our universe, but it's still theoretically reachable. I've no probably with Sigil being a nexus that occupies the space between realities, and thus has doors into all realities. I've no problem with the Feywild having a forest that works the same way, or the Shadowfell having a house of mirrors in which if you can survive that which hunts your reflection you can find a mirror that you can step into and find yourself in another reality's Shadowfell.

It's putting it all within the Great Wheel that is the problem.

The Great Wheel itself is just a model, though: the sages of Sigil use it, but the DMG makes it pretty clear that doesn't make it anything more than convenient. You can navigate and calculate astronomical events based on the Ptolomean system, but that doesn't mean that it is "true" the way the ancient Greeks thought that it was.

 

[Bolares]

Maybe because Eberron is so different, with no metaplot advancement, and such things, they are being clear that it has it's own cosmology, and with other settings they loose their stuff. If that's the case I'd agree its kind of restrictive

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

There's no canon explanation for either, but it can be inferred that Vi is a Planeswalker and can bypass the crystal that cuts Eberron off.

Maybe Vi is the local echo of Ellywick Tumblestrum and when Elly sparked all of the echoes sparked, so now there is a legion of sassy gnome ladies fluttering about the multiverse.

 

[dave2008]

We've even seen that back in AD&D 2E. On Hallowed Ground (affiliate link) explicitly confirms that the Norse god Tyr (an intermediate god) is also the Tyr of the Faerunian pantheon (a greater god).

With regard to Dragon, are you referring to the "Deities and Their Faithful" article from issue #97, by Gary Gygax? Because that's slightly different, if I recall correctly (i.e. it refers to divine hit points varying on each world depending on the number and nature of their worshipers).

Yep that was it. He discusses hit points and something separate that I believe he simply called "power." But I don't recall what that was. I've got saved somewhere.

 

[dave2008]

It's putting it all within the Great Wheel that is the problem.

What do you mean by the great wheel? The cosmology of the wheel, IMO, is not a real thing. It just a simplified description so that mortals can understand it somewhat. It doesn't actual function like it is described (i.e. a wheel). Hades is not physically adjacent to Gehenna, it shares a metaphysical border that allows one to travel to the other, but in reality that could be a universe (or more) apart. But how do you look at / treat it.

 

[dave2008]

That is very different from the new canon. There is one Hells, one Abyss, one Feywild, one Shadowfell, etc, and they reach all worlds that aren't somehow cut off from those planes.

Why do thinks this? Where has this been verified? Like I said before I haven't seen anything to suggest that this is absolute fact. There are lots of rumors if you will, but I haven't seen it emphatically spelled out.

But even in a setting that is cut off, you could theoretically get around that cutting off and you'd be in the same cosmology as the Descent Into Avernus AP. In Eberron, they strongly suggest that all it would take is a crack in Eberron's crystal sphere (which Eberron shouldn't even need to have) to allow the gods of the Great Wheel to start influencing things in Eberron, and there is a canon NPC who does travel into and out of Eberron, though she is also able to Planeswalk, so I'm fine with her deal.

The Eberron book specifically states that it is cut off with its own cosmology. It gives you some wiggle room to integrate it into the wheel if you want, but not required if you don't.

And that's the thing. set it up like MtG planes, and I'm fine with it. An MtG plane can have whatever cosmology the theme calls for, or none at all and the whole universe is a city.

I feel like it is.

What you describe would be fine. It just isn't what the 5e lore is changing the dnd multiverse into.

I think that remains to be seen. I think my cosmos still works with the "official" 5e, but I have a different perspective on the validity of official lore.

I'm glad you can view the books that way. This isn't sarcasm, which I point out because that phrase is most often used sarcastically. I'm genuinely glad for you. It's not exactly convenient to not be able to see lore that isn't explicitly stated to be that way in that light.

I feel for you. I don't think I could play D&D if I had to respect what was "official" lore.

 

[Mirtek]

Sure. "The divine beings of the multiverse are often categorized according to their cosmic power. Some gods are worshiped on multiple worlds and have a different rank on each world, depending on their influence there."

This is consistent with past editions. A god could be a demigod on one prime plane and a greater god on another.

But what power does she have outside of the prime plane? Deities are usually unable or at least forbidden to even visit prime planes. So that statement doesn't help at all. Even if you visit the deity from a world where she is only a demigod this means nothing as you're no longer on your world when you meet her

 

[Urriak Uruk]

By the way, here's a very subtle reference to Dragonlance I found in the Van Richten's Guide, when it describes the domain Klorr;

Klorr is the end of worlds. Here, shattered islands drift through a misty netherworld, caught in a swirling spiral that ends at the unignorable, burning eye called Klorr. Thirteen stars orbit this sun-like sphere, one winking out every hour. Each time one of the stars dies, one of the domain's ruined islands is drawn into Klorr and consumed by flames. With it, each other island wrenches ahead, then halts, one hour closer to the same doom.

Those who dwell upon the crumbling land masses trapped in the domain constantly count the hours until their end. Few know how they came to Klorr or when new islands are added to the cycle, only that the Mists closed in and doomed them. Amid the realm's surreal skies float the ruins of lost and failed domains—among them, a tower like a blackened rose and a city of skulls—as well as timeless echoes of domains that yet exist. Those cast away amid this orderly apocalypse grow ever more desperate to defy the doomsday clock and the will of a hidden Darklord, the obsessed clockmaker named Klorr.

I believe the "tower like a blackened rose" is a reference to Lord Soth's domain in Ravenloft, Sithicus, and the city of skulls to Vecna's domain of Cavitius. The implication being both were destroyed as their Darklords escaped (Darkon may eventually have the same fate).

 

[Maxperson]

But what power does she have outside of the prime plane? Deities are usually unable or at least forbidden to even visit prime planes. So that statement doesn't help at all. Even if you visit the deity from a world where she is only a demigod this means nothing as you're no longer on your world when you meet her

Not necessarily. This could easily be a situation where Takhisis is a 5 headed Chromatic dragon greater goddess with the same personality, etc. as Tiamat, but Tiamat is a lesser goddess. Two versions of the same being, like Loki from the Marvel TV show. Each has a realm on a plane. Perhaps they can even share knowledge in some fashion, being the same being split in two(or more) versions.