D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.

D&D 5E - Check out Fizban's Alternate Cover!

WotC's James Wyatt talked to Polygon about Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, which also revealed the alternate cover, which you can only get from hobby stores. https://www.enworld.org/threads/fizbans-treasury-the-dragon-book-now-has-a-description-and-a-feat.681399/

www.enworld.org

D&D 5E - Fizban's Treasury: The Dragon Book Now Has A Description... And A Feat

Courtesy of Amazon, we now have a description for Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, the October D&D hardcover. The book introduces gem dragons, dragon-themed player options, and plenty of draconic lore! This joins September's The Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and November's Strixhaven: Curriculum of...

www.enworld.org

 

[Seramus]

You know who always gets forgotten? The Hittites. Those guys had three barrels full of stolen gods, and nobody even remembers they owned Troy during the famous siege.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It’s literally a reduction in plausible options.

not only that, but every story you could tell in this new model could have been told before, when the Great Wheel hadn’t eaten all other cosmologies and there were multiple material planes. I’ve described how already. You could even have had The Great Wheel as a setting that includes many worlds, from Oerth to Toril to Mystara to Exandria, without changing the cosmology of worlds that were their own before, or making the official canon that all worlds exist on the same material Plane.

I also just don’t get how y’all can possibly not understand why this matters. Like, it can’t just be that because y’all like this new model you can’t be bothered to think about why someone might dislike it, but that’s what it feels like having this discussion.

Eberron’s progenitor dragons, before 5e, created a universe. Not part of a universe, not a world, but a whole and entire cosmology. It existed separate and alongside other universes in the D&D multiverse. Now they created a bubble and went, “hey let’s have our own elves and dwarves and whatnot, but separate from the real deal on all those other worlds.”

Or, even worse, everything in Eberron comes from some First World that fractured into the “multiverse”.

Ah man, between this thread being brought up in another thread and someone liking my posts here today...now I'm mad again about all this.

I'm very happy that my entire gaming group strongly agrees with me, so I don't have to worry about conflicting expectations when I ignore the 5e canon completely..

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Ah man, between this thread being brought up in another thread and someone liking my posts here today...now I'm mad again about all this.

I'm very happy that my entire gaming group strongly agrees with me, so I don't have to worry about conflicting expectations when I ignore the 5e canon completely..

I should inform you the First World and stuff is treated as a story, and not as hard fact.

Also fun fact about Eberron. It's outright stated as not being an fragment of the First World like many others. But instead basically a second generation attempt at the same sort of thing, and also coincidentally shaped by Dragons.

Athas is also suggested as a World that was not created via the shattering of the First World as it does not have Dragons in their normal state. Only people that transformed themselves into Dragon like creatures (And it's stated that the only consistency fragments of the First World have is that they have Dragons even if they take on different forms.)

 

[Bolares]

Also fun fact about Eberron. It's outright stated as not being an fragment of the First World like many others. But instead basically a second generation attempt at the same sort of thing, and also coincidentally shaped by Dragons.

That to me shows Wyatt’s care with the lore of a world he helped to create

 

[Scribe]

That to me shows Wyatt’s care with the lore of a world he helped to create

You love to see it, when respect is paid to an original creation's lore.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I should inform you the First World and stuff is treated as a story, and not as hard fact.

Man did a bunch of people get advance copies or something? Anyway, that is better than it could have been, certainly.

Also fun fact about Eberron. It's outright stated as not being an fragment of the First World like many others. But instead basically a second generation attempt at the same sort of thing, and also coincidentally shaped by Dragons.

Interesting, especially considering that Eberron has dragons. It still makes Eberron a thing where a trio of "great wyrms?" decided to create duplicates of things that were created by gods that simply didn't use to exist in the Eberron cosmology, but it's much less bad than it could have been. In fact improves the situation slightly from before this book.

Athas is also suggested as a World that was not created via the shattering of the First World as it does not have Dragons in their normal state. Only people that transformed themselves into Dragon like creatures (And it's stated that the only consistency fragments of the First World have is that they have Dragons even if they take on different forms.)

That makes sense, though I'd of course still prefer Athas just not interact with the rest of the DnD multiverse unless a DM decides to make it do so.

That to me shows Wyatt’s care with the lore of a world he helped to create

Yeah. I think if i were to use the Fizban's lore, I'd simply adjust the "timeline" so that Eberron and some others worlds were made before or at the same time as the First World, which a dracocentric name for it, and as the cosmology of the first world expanded when it shattered, it eventually pressed up against other cosmologies and in some cases swallowed them, and in other cases simply formed a close enough connection that some form of travel was theoretically possible.

That way, Eberron doesn't have a crystal sphere, it isn't inside the great wheel, it's very closely adjacent and very much closed off from inter-cosmological travel except by very rare means like MtG planeswalking.

I know a lot of folks just don't get why it matters, but it does. The progenitors shouldn't be derivative creators who copied the works of Bahamut, Takhisis, and the various gods who created various creatures. Eberron's elves have never been, and should not now be, the children of Correlon.

Like it would be so easy to just say that several worlds exist in the Great Wheel, without making it all DnD worlds.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Man did a bunch of people get advance copies or something? Anyway, that is better than it could have been, certainly.

Interesting, especially considering that Eberron has dragons. It still makes Eberron a thing where a trio of "great wyrms?" decided to create duplicates of things that were created by gods that simply didn't use to exist in the Eberron cosmology, but it's much less bad than it could have been. In fact improves the situation slightly from before this book.

That makes sense, though I'd of course still prefer Athas just not interact with the rest of the DnD multiverse unless a DM decides to make it do so.

Yeah. I think if i were to use the Fizban's lore, I'd simply adjust the "timeline" so that Eberron and some others worlds were made before or at the same time as the First World, which a dracocentric name for it, and as the cosmology of the first world expanded when it shattered, it eventually pressed up against other cosmologies and in some cases swallowed them, and in other cases simply formed a close enough connection that some form of travel was theoretically possible.

That way, Eberron doesn't have a crystal sphere, it isn't inside the great wheel, it's very closely adjacent and very much closed off from inter-cosmological travel except by very rare means like MtG planeswalking.

I know a lot of folks just don't get why it matters, but it does. The progenitors shouldn't be derivative creators who copied the works of Bahamut, Takhisis, and the various gods who created various creatures. Eberron's elves have never been, and should not now be, the children of Correlon.

Like it would be so easy to just say that several worlds exist in the Great Wheel, without making it all DnD worlds.

Athas has always been part of the greater cosmology. It's just always been cut off and easy to enter but much harder to leave. The Gith there were originally Githyanki from the Astral that got stranded there.

Here is exactly what is said about Eberron. Eberron's elves would not be children of Correlon as he was not involved with Eberron.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Also fun fact about Eberron. It's outright stated as not being an fragment of the First World like many others. But instead basically a second generation attempt at the same sort of thing, and also coincidentally shaped by Dragons.

Heh. "Second Generation of the First World created by 3 Primordial Godlike Draconic Entities" is exactly the theory that I had in this thread a few months back. Khyber is a reflection of the Tiamat that created the First World (being a fiendish dragon that is trapped in a hellscape), Eberron is a reflection of Bahamut that protects the world from the machinations of Tiamat/Khyber, and Siberys is a reflection of Sardior, as both of them got shattered and are connected to psionics.

Interesting that Eberron is stated to be in the Ethereal Plane now. In Eberron: Rising from the Last War, it just mentioned it being somewhere in the Great Wheel. I would have assumed that it was in the Astral over the Ethereal, actually.

 

[Bolares]

Athas has always been part of the greater cosmology. It's just always been cut off and easy to enter but much harder to leave. The Gith there were originally Githyanki from the Astral that got stranded there.

Here is exactly what is said about Eberron. Eberron's elves would not be children of Correlon as he was not involved with Eberron.

This print kind of makes paladine and bahamut to be different entities…

 

[MonsterEnvy]

This print kind of makes paladine and bahamut to be different entities…

Here's the full thing.