Is RAISE DEAD (etc.) too readily available in most D&D campaigns?

[Storyteller01]

I'm glad you find it so easy to have 14th level clerics with a few days journey, no matter where you are in your campaign world, but you need to understand that unlimited PC wealth and unlimited access to casters of that level anywhere in the world is neither recommended by the book, nor the way that most of us play.

Previous experience and other boards (especially WotC) would disagree with you. By the book Raising a character is rather cheap and easy.

-Constant use of preservative spells can make a body last indefinitely (most DM's don't throw bad guys in while on the way home). You don't need to be a few days ride from the metroplise. The cleric just keeps memorizing it until you get to town. Per Gentle Repose's descsription, the dead may have a better time with the trip than the living, and all they need is a pair of pennies with salt (we now have a use for all those cp).

-What's available in an area is defined by a percentage of funds. If it falls into that percentage, they're guaranteed to have it unless the DM says otherwise. A village with no clerics can, by the RAW, have 7 potions of healing available for sale. A 5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp diamond SHOULD be hard to find. It isn't unless your DM shuts it down. Worse, even if you can't find the diamond, per the RAW you can find a spell on a scroll for slightly more the the component itself.

-A +2 weapon is 8,000 gp. Half price is 4,000 gp. You're now 1,000 gp short of your goal. A +3 weapon is 18,000 gp, selling for 9,000. You're now 1,000 away from a Ressurection. +2 weapons may not be just thrown around, but the random nature of treasure means they'd sell a +2 weapon they aren't optimized for if it means getting the missing member back (who absolutely needs a +2 quarter staff?).

You're now 1,000 gp from a resurrection. How you get it is up to you, but it isn't far from impossible. If you have a +2 weapon you have other means of making cash (sometimes literally). Add to this that the body is effectively preserved indefinitely.

-The body doesn't have to be whole for the spell to work, it has to have all its parts if they want to keep them. A dead character with a missing arm comes back with a missing arm per the SRD. Personaly that makes for an interesting game, but that's me.


We admit to not playing by the RAW. However, your comments show you may not be taking full advantage of the RAW. That you enforce 'days to get to an area' and 'the spell/caster/scrolls are raely available' suggests you're tweaking the system to make recovery from death harder, even if you don't know it.

 

[roguerouge]

A quick rules question: "What's available in an area is defined by a percentage of funds. If it falls into that percentage, they're guaranteed to have it unless the DM says otherwise. A village with no clerics can, by the RAW, have 7 potions of healing available for sale. "

Am I reading that right? if a town's wealth stat was enough to encompass a certain magic item, it has that item, even if it would mean that the village has no other resources? Unless the DM says otherwise? There's not something that says what the general distribution (or concentration) of wealth is or what the most valuable item could be?

That's a seriously abstract stat if I'm reading it right.

 

[Storyteller01]

A quick rules question: "What's available in an area is defined by a percentage of funds. If it falls into that percentage, they're guaranteed to have it unless the DM says otherwise. A village with no clerics can, by the RAW, have 7 potions of healing available for sale. "

Am I reading that right? if a town's wealth stat was enough to encompass a certain magic item, it has that item, even if it would mean that the village has no other resources? Unless the DM says otherwise? There's not something that says what the general distribution (or concentration) of wealth is or what the most valuable item could be?

That's a seriously abstract stat if I'm reading it right.

Might have been changed in 3.5, but yea. Guaranteed may be too strong a word, but it's assumed that it's there unless your DM doesn't want it to be. Availability of items were based on a flat gp rate, which was based on population. A village had about (not sure though) 400 gp.

In a previous thread (about the availablitiy of healing potions, no less), we worked out that a village could have 7 or 8 potions of cure light wounds on hand without a maker (and the possibility of having many casters [including apprentices] that COULD make them). The total wasn't 'x gp of items', it was 'x gp worth of any given item'.

Going from memory, but I think that's it. Personally, I see them using that 50 gp each for plows and horses...


EDIT: Mixed somethings up. Each classification has a flat gp limit for items. A village is 200 (i think I switched it with a village population). The areas total funds to buy something (how much gp the characters can get from selling stuff) is based partly on its population.

 

[molonel]

Previous experience and other boards (especially WotC, from my experience) would disagree with you. By the book they make Raising character rather cheap and easy.

I've posted on several major gaming forums, and I think your emphasis is more on "the games I've played" than anything else. Try speaking for yourself instead of trying to slide the opinion of the silent and unpresent majority into the discussion. I've played across cons all up and down the west coast, and in games with dozens of DMs and hundreds of players.

Besideswhich, plenty of folks here have been disagreeing with you. I'm one of those.

It's not cheap and easy. It's just cheaper and easier than you'd like it to be.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Constant use of preservative spells can make a body last indefinitely (most DM's don't throw bad guys in while on the way home). You don't need to be a few days ride from the metroplise. The cleric just keeps memorizing it until you get to town. Per Gentle Repose's descsription, the dead may have a better time with the trip than the living, and all they need is a pair of pennies with salt.

What you describe, however, is an arduous journey. Not a quick stop for coffee and a Raise Dead from the local McCleric.

What's available in an area is defined by a percentage of funds. If it falls into that percentage, they're guaranteed to have it unless the DM says otherwise. A village with no clerics can, by the RAW, have 7 potions of healing available for sale. If it isn't a service isn't available in a city or metropolis, it's because the DM wants it that way.

And that, as I've said, is a large city or metropolis. If you're running a big city adventure, yes, you'll have better access to high-level spellcasters.

But you raise the point that all of this is under DM's purview, as well, even then. The books do not FORCE you to put a McTemple on every street corner in any city, nor a temple of a favorably aligned deity within easy reach every 5 feet in the desert.

D&D gives you guidelines. You're acting like the game literally bends your arm to make sure the feelings of PCs are never hurt.

And that's a caricature.

A +2 weapon is 8,000 gp. Half price is 4,000 gp. You're now 1,000 gp short of your goal. How you get it is up to you, but it isn't far from impossible. If you have a+2 weapon you have other means of making cash. Add to this that the body is effectively preserved indefinitely.

Whew. Good thing I never said it was impossible. In fact, I said it WAS possible. But possible is not cheap and easy.

The body doesn't have to be whole for the spell to work, it has to have all its parts if they want to keep them. A dead character with a missing arm comes back with a missing arm per the SRD. Personaly that makes for an interesting game, but that's me.

That's correct. The spell can work if your arm is missing.

We may not play by the RAW, but your comments show you may not be taking full advantage of the RAW, or tweaking the system to make recovery from death harder (even if subconsciously).

I'm aware of the Gentle Repose spell. Not every group I've adventured in had a cleric, either, and it's not the first spell most wizards grab on their spell list. Some had a druid that did the healing. Others had a bard. That's part of why I say you set up the worst case scenario and assume that everyone is going to play that way. Even then, you're stretching it.

Your comments show that you have a very skewed idea of what constitutes the RAW. I have not tweaked the system, other than to make the XP hit less for Raise Dead and Resurrection. The material components are the same, the spells are the same caster level, and I've made very few changes to the RAW.

It's not subconscious. The rules just do not HAVE to be played in the cartoonish, silly way you describe. Nor do I even think they lean that way.

I find the fact that you think I must be doing something freakish and odd with the rules very strange.

 

[Storyteller01]

What you describe, however, is an arduous journey. Not a quick stop for coffee and a Raise Dead from the local McCleric.

Depends on how you travel. Renting a boat or carriage to Waterdeep is hardly difficult. Eberron provides magic trains and airships. Base Greyhawk campaigns have trade caravans (comfy if you pay well, and you don't have to stand watch).

And that, as I've said, is a large city or metropolis. If you're running a big city adventure, yes, you'll have better access to high-level spellcasters.

And the RAW has stats for how many such area are available with a give popluation. It isn't based on surface area or terrain. Unless you limit your world popluation to only a few thousand there will be a city or metropolis around. And we've already covered how easy it is to get to one.

But you raise the point that all of this is under DM's purview, as well, even then. The books do not FORCE you to put a McTemple on every street corner in any city, nor a temple of a favorably aligned deity within easy reach every 5 feet in the desert.

And they don't offer options to the contrary. It's all designed around the 'go to dungeon, get loot, get back home' approach. They've stated as such in their marketing campaigns. You have to deny these option to a player, not build them into the system.

D&D gives you guidelines. You're acting like the game literally bends your arm to make sure the feelings of PCs are never hurt.

And that's a caricature.

Nope. That's marketing. Used to be it took an exceptional amount of time to get to high levels. Now you can make it in 2 years real time, provided you don't get bored around 8th to 11th level. The RAW was designed to make Raising easier to obtain and use. You say that the gem and the level loss is bad. Would you play with system shock (the spell might be wasted) or automatic constitution loss? How about aging a year every time you use haste? These penalties were removed for a reason.

Your comments show that you have a very skewed idea of what constitutes the RAW. I have not tweaked the system, other than to make the XP hit less for Raise Dead and Resurrection. The material components are the same, the spells are the same caster level, and I've made very few changes to the RAW.

Nope, not skewed. Just the rules as written...

Your're claiming that areas able to use the Raise spells are few and far to get to in your campaign. Per the RAW, a village will have several scrolls of Gentle Ropse around. Not one, many. A village... more than one... at 150 per spell, at three to four days each, regardless of whether there's a caster on site. More if there is, and possibly with a greater duration.

Nothing in the RAW stops any of your casters from obtaining the scrolls. Find a means of travelling to the needed area (also provided in the RAW, and extremely cheap for a PC), and get the required spells. If you're saying that it isn't available, you are the one preventing this. The RAW has provided the means, YOU have to tell them no.

It's not subconscious. The rules just do not HAVE to be played in the cartoonish, silly way you describe. Nor do I even think they lean that way.

It may be silly, but that is the system in place. You have to tell your players that they can't use the option. They don't have to stretch to find it. The map is pretty much laid out for them via the rules.


Never said you were acting freakish or strange. You play the way you do. But if you're pulling 'good luck getting to the church on time, or getting the materials you need, or finding that caster...' you're not using the RAW. You're using the 'but this is a DM's option' clause and running with it. You've used rule 0.

 

[molonel]

Depends on how you travel. Renting a boat to Waterdeep is hardly difficult.

Hahahahahahaha!!!!

You're using the Forgotten Realms as your baseline?

No wonder your view is so skewed.

And the RAW has stats for how many such area are available with a give popluation. It isn't based on surface area or terrain. Unless you limit your world popluation to only a few thousand there will be a city or metropolis around. And we've already covered how easy it i to get to one.

In your game world, it's extremely easy to get to a highly populated area. My world has borderlands, wilderness, dungeons, mountains and the players don't have perfect maps of everything. There are areas to explore, and places to adventure.

If you make it easy to get to heavily populated areas all the time, that's your choice as a DM. That's not something the game forces you to do.

And they don't offer options to the contrary. It's all designed around the 'go to dungeon, get loot, get back home' approach. They've stated as such in their marketing campaigns. You may play outside that, but that is the way the game was built.

Show me where in the books where it says you are limited to traveling 2 - 3 days into dungeons on the outskirts of heavily populated areas.

Nope. That's marketing. Used to be it took an exceptional amount of time to get to high levels. Now you can make it in 2 years real time, provided you don't get bored around 8th to 11th level. The RAW was designed to make Raising easier to obtain and use. You say that the gem and the level loss is bad. Would you play with system shock (the spell might be wasted) or automatic constitution loss? How about aging a year every time you use haste? These penalties were removed for a reason.

They were removed because they were silly, and made an already arduous process a crapshoot besides. A lot of 1st Edition players didn't even use them. Imagine how delightful the scene would have been in the Conan movie if they'd fought off the spirits of the dead, and the wizard looked at Conan's body and said, "Oh well! System shock. Sucks to be you. Guess we'll try again tomorrow night." If you feel those mechanics add something to your game, use them. For a base, core rules game, they make no sense.

Simply because you can make something silly and hard on an anal, nitpicking level doesn't mean that's the best way to go.

But you're claiming that areas able to use the Raise spells are few and far to get to in your campaign. Per the RAW, a village will have several scrolls of Gentle Ropse around. Not one, many. A village... more than one...

A village will have scrolls of Gentle Repose? That exact scroll? Just sitting there waiting for players to use them on the way to the metropolis to get a McResurrection? Wow. That's convenient.

Nothing in the RAW stops any of your casters from obtaining the scrolls. Find a means of travelling to the needed area (also provided in the RAW, and extremely cheap for a PC), and get the required spells. If you're saying that it isn't available, you are the one preventing this. The RAW has provided the means, YOU have to tell them no.

The RAW nowhere dictates the pace of your story or whether PCs always have time to everything they want to do. That is absolute nonsense. If you write stories that can always be put on hold indefinitely, that is YOUR choice.

It may be silly, but that is the system in place. You have to tell your players that they can't use the option. They don't have to stretch to find te option. The map is pretty much laid out for them.

It is silly, and it's most certainly NOT the system in place. The rules give you guidelines. What you do with them is your choice.

From what you've described, you've made some very poor ones.

 

[molonel]

Never said you were acting freakish or strange. You play the way you do. But if you're pulling 'good luck getting to the church on time, or getting the materials you need, or finding that caster...' you're not using the RAW. You're using the 'but this is a DM's option' clause and running with it. You've used rule 0.

Show me where in the rules it says, "PCs always have unlimited monetary resources, unlimited access to high level spellcasters who are friendly to them, and unlimited time to do everything they want."

I'd like a page number.

 

[Storyteller01]

I've posted on several major gaming forums, and I think your emphasis is more on "the games I've played" than anything else. Try speaking for yourself instead of trying to slide the opinion of the silent and unpresent majority into the discussion. I've played across cons all up and down the west coast, and in games with dozens of DMs and hundreds of players.

I have been. Saying 'I think you really mean x when you say y' doesn't change anything.

Can't say I've played at cons, but I've played pretty much all over eastern asia. Military work tends to lead to free time and lots of players.

Besideswhich, plenty of folks here have been disagreeing with you. I'm one of those.

Cool. Here is not a solid sampling of the gaming community.

It's not cheap and easy. It's just cheaper and easier than you'd like it to be.

EXACTLY!! Hence the question from the OP.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Then why the hate, or jumping to conclusions (at what point did I call you freakish or strange?). Does the fact that you've been to cons make your option any better?

 

[Storyteller01]

Show me where in the rules it says, "PCs always have unlimited monetary resources, unlimited access to high level spellcasters who are friendly to them, and unlimited time to do everything they want."

I'd like a page number.

Show me stats in WotC products that don't assume raising is readily available. Or a published adventure that doesn't have raising/healing available for cheap after the event is finished (RttToEE almost makes having a cleric with raise dead manditory). Or a WotC published world that doesn't have cities and metropoli with cleric capable of healing for x compensation.

As you said, it may not be easy. Our definition of what characters should go through is very different. I prefer that characters don't fall back on 'I'll get raised anyway', you prefer to keep them. Still, if you play 'this option in the DMG won't be used' you're not fudging (and I mean outside of considering spells fudging) any less than anyone else.

 

[Storyteller01]

Hahahahahahaha!!!!

You're using the Forgotten Realms as your baseline?

No wonder your view is so skewed.

I used a named city. Getting a boat in Greyhawk or most other campaigns just as easy.

In your game world, it's extremely easy to get to a highly populated area.

No, it's not. Per the DMG, it easy to find one based on a percentage roll. Hence my reasoning for not using these rules. They're still in the RAW, and you apparently aren't using them.

My world has borderlands, wilderness, dungeons, mountains and the players don't have perfect maps of everything. There are areas to explore, and places to adventure.

Mine has planets with the same benefits, few of which are wholy populated (by that settings standards, no less). We have similar views on how a world should work.

If you make it easy to get to heavily populated areas all the time, that's your choice as a DM. That's not something the game forces you to do.

No, but it does force you to not make it easy. Again, the ease is built into the system. You as the DM choose not to use it.

Show me where in the books where it says you are limited to traveling 2 - 3 days into dungeons on the outskirts of heavily populated areas.

Any published adventure in Dungeon Magazine that says 'There's a cave/marsh/dungeon/abandoned keep/etc a few miles from the village you're staying in...'

Simply because you can make something silly and hard on an anal, nitpicking level doesn't mean that's the best way to go.

Never said it was. I've never called you silly, anal, nitpicky, or micromanaging either.

A village will have scrolls of Gentle Repose? That exact scroll? Just sitting there waiting for players to use them on the way to the metropolis to get a McResurrection? Wow. That's convenient.

Agreed. Two sitting in any random village for no reason what so ever. It's in the RAW, and I don't use it.

The RAW nowhere dictates the pace of your story or whether PCs always have time to everything they want to do. That is absolute nonsense. If you write stories that can always be put on hold indefinitely, that is YOUR choice.

Agreed, but the system is designed to facilitate this. If you don't use it, your fudging as much as I am.

It is silly, and it's most certainly NOT the system in place. The rules give you guidelines. What you do with them is your choice.

This IS the system in place, a guideline to make raising and gameplay easier for the 'get it quick' crowd, with disclaimers of 'at the DM's option'. You're correct, not using them is my choice.

From what you've described, you've made some very poor ones.

I've been describing DMG printed material. My choice was NOT to make Raising this available, remember?