Is RAISE DEAD (etc.) too readily available in most D&D campaigns?

[molonel]

Cool. Here is not a solid sampling of the gaming community.

And you are?

EXACTLY!! Hence the question from the OP.

Okay. That is your opinion. You'll notice when you speak about your game, and your own gaming experiences, I have no truck with that.

Then why the hate, or jumping to conclusions (at what point did I call you freakish or strange?). Does the fact that you've been to cons make your option any better?

The hate? I'm here arguing and disagreeing just like you. I've freely admitted all along that my experiences are mine alone. I haven't attempted to speak for anyone else. But if we're going to start talking about experience with other gamers, I have extensive experience to draw from. Does that make me right? No, no more than your experiences make you absolutely right.

Show me stats in WotC products that don't assume raising is readily available.

You first.

Or a published adventure that doesn't have raising/healing available for cheap after the event is finished (RttToEE almost makes having a cleric with raise dead manditory). Or a WotC published world that doesn't have cities and metropoli with cleric capable of healing for x.

Those cities are there. I freely admit that. But they aren't Starbucks.

The Forgotten Realms is a HIGH magic world. If the majority of your experience is there, I can see how you might have a different impression of things.

RttToEE is a rewrite of a 1st Edition meatgrinder. It was written that way years ago, and it was rewritten to reflect the original flavor. You went in with half a dozen character, and you were lucky to come out without making more.

I've never denied that these means are possible. But you didn't say "possible." You said cheap and easy.

I've shown that isn't necessarily the case.

As you said, it may not be easy. Our definition of what characters should go through is very different. I prefer that characters don't fall back on 'I'll get raised anyway', you prefer to keep them. Still, if you play 'this option in the DMG won't be used' you're not fudging (and I mean outside of considering spells fudging) any less than anyone else.

I've never had a player shrug, and then say, "I'll get raised anyway."

That's not the way I'd prefer it, and that's not the way it's played out.

I play a pretty straight game, although I've been experimenting more, lately, with flavor and houserules. It's not that I don't use options in the DMG, but I don't think they mean what you say they mean.

If the implication is that you are running the game closer to the rules by using McClerics, high temples scattered about like Starbucks and all adventures are 2 or 3 days away from a major metropolis and run through a short dungeoncrawl, then no. I absolutely disagree with that.

 

[Storyteller01]

And you are?

Nope, but I know what I've seen. Evertone's milage varies.

The hate? I'm here arguing and disagreeing just like you.

You called me anal, nit-picky, micromanaging, silly and have treated other posters the same. This is conversation used in a civil arguement?

You first.

Any Dungeon Magazine. Pick a page.

Those cities are there. I freely admit that. But they aren't Starbucks.

This is because you choose to play them this way. By the letter of the rules, it's easier than even you make it (compared to my campaign at any rate).

The Forgotten Realms is a HIGH magic world. If the majority of your experience is there, I can see how you might have a different impression of things.

That's just it. The majority of my experience isn't in FR, nor is it for the boards I frequent. Most have the same opinion you do. So do I. The examples I gave you are from core books.

RttToEE is a rewrite of a 1st Edition meatgrinder. It was written that way years ago, and it was rewritten to reflect the original flavor. You went in with half a dozen character, and you were lucky to come out without making more.

Doesn't change the fact that every adventure they make has Raise Dead and healing easily available, or assumes you have casters capable of doing the same.

I've never denied that these means are possible. But you didn't say "possible." You said cheap and easy.

I've shown that isn't necessarily the case.

What you've shown is that we have differeing standards for cheap and easy.

I've never had a player shrug, and then say, "I'll get raised anyway."

That's not the way I'd prefer it, and that's not the way it's played out.

Count yourself lucky. My rules came into being because I also don't prefer it that way.

I play a pretty straight game, although I've been experimenting more, lately, with flavor and houserules. It's not that I don't use options in the DMG, but I don't think they mean what you say they mean.

They're pretty straight forward.

From the SRD:
In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn’t guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.

Reasonably assured... No percentage roll or defined possibility that there won't be one. In other words, "Expect it to be there unless your DM says otherwise".

If the implication is that you are running the game closer to the rules by using McClerics, high temples scattered about like Starbucks and all adventures are 2 or 3 days away from a major metropolis and run through a short dungeoncrawl, then no. I absolutely disagree with that.

Then show solid evidence to the contrary. They don't have to go to a major metropolis. You just need to make it to a large city; ie any kingdom that the villages and towns center around. Trading, tax collecting, and protective patrols have to originate from somewhere.

Per the rules, you can get a ship passage for 1 sp per mile. A coach is 3 cp per mile. If those aren't available, simply wrapping the body and tossing him over a horse will get him where you're going. If there isn't a cleric, you're playing against the assumption made for game design (how do you think CR's came to be?). Even then, the rules allow for you to easily find a potion or scroll to help, just in case.

If you're playing that you're too far from civilization to use these, then this is your call. The system is designed to avoid these until you have casters that can raise on their own.

A world with w population can expect to have x types of local gatherings (village, city, etc). In those gathering you can reasonably assume to find y items and z magical services. It's your DM's call if it isn't

 

[molonel]

I used a named city. Getting a boat in Greyhawk or most other campaigns just as easy.

Greyhawk, and especially Living Greyhawk, is a much more low magic world where things are much grittier, and high level options even more scarce.

No, it's not. Per the DMG, it easy to find one based on a percentage roll. Hence my reasoning for not using these rules. They're still in the RAW, and you apparently aren't using them.

Do you lay out cities in your campaign world based upon percentage rolls? People just wander around, and "Oh! I rolled a 79! Major metropolis over the next hill."

We have similar views on how a world should work.

I suspect so.

No, but it does force you to not make it easy. Again, the ease is built into the system. You as the DM choose not to use it.

I, as the DM, have created a world using the rules. Neither Raise Dead, nor Resurrection, nor True Resurrection have had the ill effects you describe. I have seen no rules that dictate they should, either.

Any published adventure in Dungeon Magazine that says 'There's a cave/marsh/dungeon/abandoned keep/etc a few miles from the village you're staying in...'

You're not being extremely specific, you realize?

This IS the system in place, a guideline to make raising and gameplay easier for the 'get it quick' crowd, with disclaimers of 'at the DM's option'. You're correct, not using them is my choice.

The system in play does not make McClerics mandatory, nor high temples as common as Starbucks. That is a farce, and if you say otherwise, I want to see page numbers.

Any Dungeon Magazine. Pick a page.

Since it's your argument, why don't YOU pick a Dungeon Magazine, and tell me the page?

They're pretty straight forward.

From the SRD:
In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn’t guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells. Reasonably assured... No percentage roll or defined possibility that there won't be one. In other words, "Expect it to be there unless your DM says otherwise".

I'm familiar with these rules. And like I've said, it doesn't challenge or counter anything I've said.

Then show solid evidence to the contrary. Per the rules, you can get a ship passage for 1 sp per mile. A coach is 3 cp per mile. If those aren't available, simply wrapping the body and tossing him over a horse will get him where you're going. If there isn't a cleric, you're playing against the assumption made for game design (how do you think CR's came to be?).

As I've said, and repeated, these things are possible in the rules. But not cheap and easy.

You are making the positive truth claim that these carictures ARE a natural extension of the rules. The burden of proof is on you. Proving a negative isn't my job. Proving your point is your job.

A world with w population can expect to have x types of local gatherings (village, city, etc). In those gathering you can reasonably assume to find y items and z magical services. It's your DM's call if it isn't

And it gives no guidelines for how those are laid out, or how close PCs will be at any given time, or if the events of your story will allow long sidequests. You are the DM. Those are YOUR decisions, and accepting that role is not fudging.

 

[Storyteller01]

If you're responses are going to be 'no I won't answer your question, I don't have to...' I'm afraid we're done talking. Have fun. Enjoy your game.

 

[molonel]

If you're responses are going to be 'no I won't answer your question, I don't have to...' I'm afraid we're done talking. Have fun. Enjoy your game.

And I will say, without the snark, have fun and enjoy your game.

 

[Storyteller01]

The system in play does not make McClerics mandatory, nor high temples as common as Starbucks. That is a farce, and if you say otherwise, I want to see page numbers.

3.0 DMG pages 137 to 140 (paraphrased).

Items for sale: anything, magical or mundane, with a price less than or equal to its GP limit (40 for a thorp, 100,000 for a metroplis). While there may be exceptions, these are temporary as these gatherings will conform to the norm eventually (yes, this was printed in the DMG). the smallest community can field most mundane weapons.

Their ready cash is half the gp limit times 1/10th its population, which can be used in the same way PC's use it. There is an example of a 300 person community using the money to make 300 lonswords.

Max level for a class in a community (we'll use clerics for simplicity):

1d6 + community modifier (thorp: -3, large town +3, metropolis: +12 [roll four times, as there will be multpile high level clerics).

In a metropolis you have 4 clerics of a minimum of level 13. A large town has one at a minimum level of 4. There are two at half their level under them. If those are over first level, they have two under them that are half their level. keep going until you end with a set number of 1st level npcs for the class.

A metrolpolis will have at least four clerics that can cast raise dead, each with 14 clerics under them that can heal that can heal. A large city will have at least three (minimum level 10 for the max level in the city) with 14 clerics under each that can heal. A small city could have two that can raise. At 9th level, they'll also have 14 clerics under them that can heal.

You can find a raise scroll in a small city, and one Gentle Repose scroll in a village, neither requiring any reason as to why.


Town that are random generated have a 1 in 100 chance of being a metropolis (1 in every hundred is an obcenely high number of metropoli for a world), 4 in 100 are a large city or better, 15 in 100 are small cities or better. 3 out of every 20 communities can raise the dead by these standards. Thorpes, hamlets, and villages, might not have some cleric capable of casting some healing. They DO have a gp limit of 40, 100, and 200 respectively so getting healing through other means is still possible.

This is just the cleric. You follow the same procedure for adepts, bards, and druids, all of which have some capability to heal or reclaim life in some way. As with the cleric, only the thorpe, hamlet, and village has a chance of not having someone of a given class available.

Ciao

 

[molonel]

3.0 DMG pages 137 to 140 (paraphrased). Items for sale: anything, magical or mundane, with a price less than or equal to its GP limit (40 for a thorp, 100,000 for a metroplis). While there may be exceptions, these are temporary as these gatherings will conform to the norm eventually (yes, this was printed in the DMG). the smallest community can field most mundane weapons. Their ready cash is half the gp limit times 1/10th its population, which can be used in the same way PC's use it. There is an example of a 300 person community using the money to make 300 lonswords. Max level for a class in a community (we'll use clerics for simplicity): 1d6 + community modifier (thorp: -3, large town +3, metropolis: +12 [roll four times, as there will be multpile high level clerics). In a metropolis you have 4 clerics of a minimum of level 13. A large town has one at a minimum level of 4. There are two at half their level under them. If those are under first level, they have two under them that are half their level. keep going until you end with a set number of 1st level npcs for the class. A metrolpolis will have at least four clerics that can cast raise dead, each with 14 clerics under them that can heal that can heal. A large city will have at least three (minimum level 10 for the max level in the city). A small city could have two that can raise. You can find a raise scroll in a small city (two of them), and one Gentle Repose scroll in a village, neither requiring any reason as to why. Town that are random generated have a 1 in 100 chance of being a metropolis (1 in every hundred is an obcenely high number of metropoli for a world), 4 in 100 are a large city or better, 15 in 100 are small cities or better. 3 out of every 20 communities can raise the dead by these standards. Thorpes, hamlets, and villages, might not have some cleric capable of casting some healing. They DO have a gp limit of 40, 100, and 200 respectively so getting healing through other means is still possible. This is just the cleric. You follow the same procedure for adepts, bards, and druids, all of which have some capability to heal or reclaim life in some way. As with the cleric, only the thorpe, hamlet, and village has a chance of not having someone of a given class available. Ciao Nice editting by the way...

Page 136:

"That said, you could create a world that is very different from these basic premises. Your campaign could be set within a hollow world, on a flat world, or on the inside of a tube that spins around the sun. You could change the laws of physics to produce a world with objects or materials so light that they float, areas where time flows at a different rate, or the very real threat that the ocean might wash seafarers off the side of the world so that they fall forever in an eternal waterfall."

Never mind that you completely ignored the power center alignment, and considerations of race.

And if you're going to go balls-out and use all of the randomized tables in that section, guess how often a metropolis is going to come up on the chart?

When you roll god's eyes. That's right. You roll double-ought on your percentile score.

1 percent of the time.

A large city? 96 to 99 on the percentile score. Four percent of the time.

These are common, cheap and easy? These are the numbers you're griping about? Ninety-five percent of the time, you're going to get a small city or less, and that's if you use a randomized city chart just pulling locations on the map out of your behind.

Color me unimpressed.

 

[Hussar]

Thankfully Enworld is populated with gamers that prefer a good game to playing the numbers. Unfortunately this thread isn't representive of all players.

Pardon? Wow, how arrogant is that? The idea that true gamers will ignore the dice in favour of story? Sorry, but, the best gamers and games I've ever been in have used the dice to direct the story instead of gathering in a group hug to collectively write fan fiction.

Show me stats in WotC products that don't assume raising is readily available. Or a published adventure that doesn't have raising/healing available for cheap after the event is finished (RttToEE almost makes having a cleric with raise dead manditory). Or a WotC published world that doesn't have cities and metropoli with cleric capable of healing for x compensation.

As you said, it may not be easy. Our definition of what characters should go through is very different. I prefer that characters don't fall back on 'I'll get raised anyway', you prefer to keep them. Still, if you play 'this option in the DMG won't be used' you're not fudging (and I mean outside of considering spells fudging) any less than anyone else.

Hrm, RTTOEE. In Homlet we have Jennithar C4, Thether C5, Ydey C10, Terjon C6, Clamer C3, Derim C1, Dunrat C5.

So, in the whole village, which is specifically listed as atypical, we have one priest that can cast raise dead. You have to go to Verbobonc to get Res'd. Homlet to the Temple is 63 miles - about 3 days at a good clip. You better stay on that cleric's good side or you have a serious problem. Yup, you can get Raised - so long as you have all the necesary goodies, but, it's not as cut and dried as you are trying to make it sound.

RTTOEE is specifically set up to have that out. If Homlet was a standard village, it most certainly would not have a high enough cleric for raising and Verbobonc is a couple of weeks away, IIRC (I can't find the exact distance). Remove Y'dey and you have a situation, by RAW, where Raise Dead is no longer available. It simply takes too long to get to the nearest cleric.

Sure, you can take scrolls with you. Unless your cleric is the one who bought it. Hopefully the rogue maxed out his UMD skill.

Hey, speaking of Dragon, let's see, in the last two adventures of the Savage Tide AP, The Wyvern's Wake and the one after that whose name I forget at this moment, there is actually ZERO chance of finding a Raise Dead in time. And those adventures run from 5th to 8th level. So much for the idea that Dragon adventures always have handy clerics nearby.

 

[Storyteller01]

Color me unimpressed.

That 3 out of 20 communities with a guaranteed raise dead, either through spellcaster or scroll. Odds are better than 1 in 7, with every village guaranteed to have a gentle repose unless you choose otherwise. You wanted rules for McClerics. They're there regardless or power base of critters unless you say otherwise.

Again, even if its a random roll, it's you not using a scale revolving around how the system dolls out challenges and experience. You choosing not to have healing available in nearly every town, and you fudge the system as much as everyone else. Falling behind the 'DM's rules may vary' clause in the DMG doesn't change that.

 

[molonel]

That 3 out of 20 communities with a guaranteed raise dead, either through spellcaster or scroll. Odds are better than 1 in 7, with every village guaranteed to have a gentle repose unless you choose otherwise. You wanted rules for McClerics. They're there regardless of power base of critters unless you say otherwise.

The great metropolis which has been the core of your examples happens 1 time in a hundred if you use the basic suggestion for randomly rolling the size of your cities.

Let me repeat that.

If you use the randomized city size table, you will get a great metropolis 1 time out of a hundred.

Do you have to use that random city size determination chart? No. Do they say you should? No. Here is an example of how you can build a world, they say. Do it any way you want. This is just an example.

And the example isn't that bad.

You are wrong. I'm sorry it hurts, but live with it. The base game is not as bad as you described, nothing you've brought to the table substantiates that, you've made statements about WotC's published adventures that you cannot prove and other people have shown to be mistaken with hard examples.

Play the game however you want. Enjoy it. But the base game isn't as bad as you describe. I know, because I run it.

Again, even if its a random roll, it's you not using a scale revolving around how the system dolls out challenges and experience. You choosing not to have healing available in nearly every town, and you fudging the system as much as everyone else. Falling behind the 'DM's rules may vary' clause in the DMG doesn't change that.

I have healing available in nearly every town. What are you talking about? Okay, Gentle Repose scrolls will be available in every town. I never said they weren't. Okay, the system demands they be there. I've been in games where it wasn't an option BECAUSE NOBODY COULD CAST IT. And that was because of player choices, not DM fiat like you continually insinuate. And it's not because we don't have sufficient rules knowledge, either. We're roleplaying. Someone wanted to play a barbarian, someone else wanted to play a rogue, someone else wanted to play a bard, and someone else wanted to play ... I can't even remember what, at this point.

I'm fudging death when I use resurrection and raise dead, yes.

But I'm not fudging the system, and simply refusing to see the clear light of day. You're simply saying that the game is worse than it is.

You have been shown to be mistaken.