D&D General IS the 5 min work day a feature or a bug?

[GMforPowergamers]

The idea is that the enemies notice you’re coming in every day or 12 hours or however long it is and react, they don’t just sit there sending out a new patrol business as usual when their last 4 didn’t return and let their number dwindle, they notice, they react,

yes they react and notice (I don't remember ever even hinting they don't react) sometimes that is even the point.
in most cases (the ones the players are smart) it is not just planed for but hoped for... you go into the cave day 1 and day 2... but then day 3 you don't have to go to where they have the home field advantage... you get them to come to a place YOU have preped.

In the case of the us (I was a PC) vs the group of wizards we brain stormed "What is Ross going to have the wizards do in response" and were right more then half the time and were ready for it...


although a diffrent system we had a Vampire game that I made a fellow story teller laugh his but off (it was a larp and I was an assitant) one of my good buddies was playing an ex sabot who had an enemy of his sire... who had a whole pack that was a reoccuring issue, until he decided to go after the sire. I told the story teller to put a single ghoul guarding the main door to the ware house... then trap and set up ambushes on roof and in sewer... other story teller was like "So they can just walk in the main doors?" so I said I would answer in character but it was the same out of character for my buddy "I know my childer, he will see a heavy guarded hardened roof and sewer and a lax guarded main door and instantly 'know' that the main door is a trap, he will then split his forces roof and sewer to out think me"
It worked... the main story teller was flabbergasted... but when you know the player/DM and how they think you can work around it (sometimes)

sending scouts to find your camp, setting up traps, preparing, and when the group comes in like they did day after day there isn’t just a single standard patrol,

except this assumes the players are just dumb brutes and not useing there heads or prepping for this.

alternatively they all fled in the night taking the objective with them, all your efforts chip, chip, chipping away at their number has been rendered moot and the next time you fight them they’re going to know it’s coming, they’ll know what the group can do and they’ll of replaced all the grunts you killed, potentially with something even stronger

if they can replace weak troops tomorrow why didn't they yesterday? For all this talk of a living breathing reacting world these monsters in these scenarios all seem to have just not had there best defenses up...

A realistic reactionary world should not let the 5MWD be in the players favour in these cases

and a realistic reaction of running from your fortified home and replacing your troops is showing you didn't care about defense before

EDIT: ‘well at least there’s four less guards than there was last time’ should not be a worthwhile platitude when the remaining 26 are all now properly armed and armoured, on high alert, with double sized patrols and have prepared traps and defenses.

why were they not properly armed and armoured to start? I get the high alert... but that level of alert is also off putting (you can't stay at code red for days)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The 5 minute workday is a consequence of d&d class design.

As such it is a feature AND a bug; which one depends on the group and their playstyle.

Since it's not hard to correct for when it's a big, IMO it's fine keeping it as a feature.

so you are pro 5 minute work day... thank you for being the first brave enough to say it.

 

[Mort]

so you are pro 5 minute work day... thank you for being the first brave enough to say it.

Somewhat.

It has its place and can be fun. Going all out without much fear of consequences is a fun way to let the character loose.

But, For me, it just gets old. I want different challenges and that's just one.

Plus, some characters are more built for it then others and that can be frustrating for the group if not handled correctly.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Come back.
Pro:" The party will be at full"
Con:" The party lost the element of surprise.

um... okay but most my parties are only useing suprise on a case by case (both as player and DM) so that isn't much of a con to my groups

The warlord will send seek and destroy parties.

perfect that is what we want... that is a pro we are drawing them out and spliting them up.

The players will be found and they will be attacked in the early hours of the morning with a dispel magic on the tiny hut (if they made one).

okay and they will be at full fighting shape and you will loose your 5th level caster...

The group will definitely TPK

okay so game over, and we start again a new campiang... no big loss

and after that, I Will, show them the notes about the adventure and how and why they TPKed so drastically. Most players will agree that it was not that good of an idea."

I have never shown my notes before... unless it was to help a new DM in training... but even then I can't imagine why the Players would care as they are already makeing up there new characters... and in my experence these new characters will just be more OP and more tactics oriented that will lead to more 5mwd.
again I can't imagine this tactic working... and if you TPK enough players will just find other DMs

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It has its place and can be fun. Going all out without much fear of consequences is a fun way to let the character loose.

there we go again with no consewuences... why does everyone think people who NOVA don't both get expect and even plan for consequences?

But, For me, it just gets old. I want different challenges and that's just one.

me too that is why I wish the classes (well the power house ones) didn't cater to it.

Plus, some characters are more built for it then others and that can be frustrating for the group if not handled correctly.

yup... this is why we end up with more warlocks then anything else and almost 0 fighters except level dips

 

[FrozenNorth]

Oh skills! I'm sort of with you because 5E is the worst, but PF2 skill system has its own issues. Namely skill feats. They took the feat philosophy of 3E and applied it to the skill system. Now, you have to choose between really cool thing you do once a campaign, against cool thing you do once a session, compared to boring thing you do in every encounter. Also, you have to split them amongst the pillars of social, exploration, and combat. Guess which wins?

I’m toying with a compromise system in 5e, borrowing liberally from Level Up. No skill feats, but you can advance skills from trained to expert to master (increasing the proficiency die each time). Haven’t tried in practice yet.

 

[DND_Reborn]

weather it is a design feature that people want or a bug that needs to be eleminated...

Ah, then a poll would have gotten better results IMO.

Either way, bug or feature, depends entirely on your point of view I suppose. It would seem players who want more "power"-oriented games see it as a feature, players who want more resource management or view the world as organic (not taking the players/PCs preference into account) would see it as a bug to be dealt with or eliminated altogether.

EDIT: for the record, since I view the world as entirely organic and try to run it that way, the 5MWD wouldn't work well in my games--which is probably why if it has happened it was a fluke of circumstances in timing for how the world was moving and the PCs lucked out in the timing of it and I didn't even recognize it.

So, poll me as a no 5MWD.

I would think 4E would be more geared towards that experience from what I understand of the game although I never played it.

I have toyed with the idea of 5E becoming only per encounter, but gave up on it since it isn't organic as I see it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I wonder if people who think 5mwd can easly and always be worked around are also people who just handwave extra powers that make no sense... I keep hearing (reading) "natural common sense consequences" but then acting like the players could not see these consequences coming and plan work around them...

it's like the players don't have traps, or people on guard or allies or safe spaces ever...even with high level magic.

a party of a druid, wizard, warlock, bard can cover every base a fighter cleric wizard rogue can but also have 3 full casters and a "I can't believe it's not a full caster" if on of them dipped into fighter for a level or two they give up a level of spell for action surge (a fun equalizer). If you have a 5th party member as an artificer or half caster combat class (ranger/paliden/whatever) I don't see how 'I ambush them in the morning' helps in the slightest...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Ah, then a poll would have gotten better results IMO.

yeah maybe I should have... but since I spelled out not to argue "dms can work around it" and we are still here I don't know if that would help.

Either way, bug or feature, depends entirely on your point of view I suppose.

yeah, and I was hopeing for the POV of the pro side... without the "But you can throw infinite dragons" argument, just why it is good or liked.

It would seem players who want more "power"-oriented games see it as a feature, players who want more resource management or view the world as organic (not taking the players/PCs preference into account) would see it as a bug to be dealt with or eliminated altogether.

what I am looking fro are those 'power' oriented players to talk about the pros of the 5mwd.

 

[Mort]

there we go again with no consewuences... why does everyone think people who NOVA don't both get expect and even plan for consequences?

What I meant by "no consequences" was knowing you have a contingency to rest up and recuperate right after. If you're not sure that's the case, going full NOVA is very risky.