Is the Assassin's Death Attack an 'evil act'?

[blaggart]

To the OP, I think what your goal is to have a bad guy receive the calling of the Paladin, much like a redeemed pc (BoED), formerly evil gone good? Much like the main character in the movie Gross Point Blank "I was found to be lacking certain moral qualities”.

As a loose styled DM I would closely watch your use of the Deathstrike ability and would say it’s only to be used vs. known evil and only when they are threatening. An anti Paladin napping under the shade of a tree could not be Assassinated without you loosing all Paladin abilities.

Blaggart

 

[javcs]

A question for those who say that once you no longer meet the pre-reqs for a PRC you loose all non-HD directly related abilities.
What happens with the Dragon Disciple, he picks up dragon at 10th, does he loose everything, thus re-qualifying?
And for those who say you keep abilities, just can't advance when you no longer meet pre-reqs.
What about the Epic Dragon Disciple?

 

[Sejs]

A question for those who say that once you no longer meet the pre-reqs for a PRC you loose all non-HD directly related abilities.
What happens with the Dragon Disciple, he picks up dragon at 10th, does he loose everything, thus re-qualifying?
And for those who say you keep abilities, just can't advance when you no longer meet pre-reqs.
What about the Epic Dragon Disciple?

Yes, that is one of the main problems.

Simple solution: Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple. The character exists in both states (qualifying and not) in simultaneous super-position until you collapse the waveform by no longer caring and moving on.

 

[airwalkrr]

Using a death attack in and of itself is not evil. There are several "good" prestige classes that receive similar abilities. However, an assassin is an implement of murder for hire. In order to join, one must murder someone for no other reason than to join the assassin's guild. An insidious DM often makes this a person the assassin is close to or has respect for. A professional killer needs to divest himself of emotional attachments to be a truly effective killing machine and, at least in the black-and-white morality of D&D, killing for killing's sake is evil.

An assassin who uses a death attack against an evil creature is not committing an evil act unless the assassin is killing the creature for personal gain alone (e.g. being paid). If the assassin is simply defending himself from a creature he considers a dire threat to his person, it could be construed as self-defense, and at worst, neutral. The only way it could be considered good is if the assassin does it primarily for the benefit of others, like assassinating the evil ogre that has enslaved the town without any hope of a reward (e.g. the ogre is a destitute despot with not wealth to speak of and the town has no money either). Most (if not all) assassin's are loathe to put themselves at such personal risk for such altruistic reasons. For this reason, assassins are evil in alignment.

 

[ivocaliban]

Not true. If you no longer meet the prereqs of the class, you lose the benefits.

This recently became a big issue in my campaign where a PC was using the Dread Pirate prestige class. One of the requirements of that class is that the character owns a ship worth at least 10,000gp. All that was fine until his ship was destroyed in a massive climatic battle. For a short time he did not own a ship and I was faced with the task of temporarily stripping him of the class, thus severely limiting his power (the Dread Pirate PrC made up half his levels).

In the end I decided to reach a compromise. I allowed him to keep his BAB, Saving Throws, Skills, and Feats he'd gained...along with the class features Two-Weapon Fighting, Acrobatic Charge, and Steady Stance. I withheld the Seamanship, Fearsome Reputation, Rally the Crew, and Luck of the Wind class abilities, however, until he could gain another ship. This was to reflect the loss of face and self-respect he'd suffered in losing his ship, without taking away his ability to fight in his chosen style.


In regards to the question at hand, I don't think Death Attack is an evil act. Generally speaking any ability or power that constitutes an evil act is often labeled as such. I'm sure there are plenty of situations where it could be interpreted as evil, depending on the circumstances, but I don't think it is evil in and of itself.

 

[hanniball]

I know there's nothing in the RAW to prevent those two classes from beind held at the same time, but would it require giving up the class features of one or the other to do so? I'm just thinking about developing an order devoted to Slaying Evil and wondering if this is a feasible route for members to take.

It's entirely plausible for a Paladin to take the Assassin Prc, but yes, she will lose all of her Paladin abilities if she strays from Lawful Good. Assassin has no such written preclusion, but as was stated, complete warrior brings a new (albeit dim) light to the issue.

In order to qualify for assassin, you must kill someone for no reason other than to join the assassin's guild; this is obviously evil. However, I see no reason that one could not atone for this action, become LG once more, only accept writs on evil individuals and continue advancing in the Assassin Prc.

Then again, the Slayer of Domiel is almost exactly what you're looking for, so I would just allow exalted characters in your game.

Finally, no, using the Death Attack ability is not an evil act, in and of itself.

Either way...just my 2 cp

 

[Squire James]

Well, it's pretty solidly stated in the RAW that an intentional evil act pretty much means the Paladin loses all class abilities forever... atonement might get you back to Lawful Good but will not make you a paladin again. You'll have to somehow arrange to turn evil by compulsion, become an assassin while under the compulsion, and atone after the compulsion is finished. Don't forget those Hide and Move Silently requirements... pre-building the skills is a clear sign of premeditation so they'll have to come about during the compulsion too (in my opinion). Any DM who'd let you do that would probably let you take Assassin levels without being evil.

Still, if a mad scientist (play the Robot Chicken intro...) grabs a Paladin and replaces a limb with a dorky-looking mechanical limb that automatically grants a level of assassin without meeting PrC prerequisites, using the Death Attack ability in itself will not cause a Fall. That would only happen if killing the target with a weapon would be Evil Enough.

 

[tomBitonti]

Hrm ... (spoliers for Grosse Point Blank)

Using a death attack in and of itself is not evil. There are several "good" prestige classes that receive similar abilities. However, an assassin is an implement of murder for hire.

Remaining text omitted.

From a role-playing point of view, one could argue that performing a death attack requires such a level of detachment, that using it is invariably evil.

To make this work, the techniques for an assassin would need to be different than for other classes. I'm imagining that the assassin would need to enter a meditative state, allowing them to bypass their moral sense, to be able to perform their death attack with sufficient precision to be effective.

I find the reference to Grosse Point Blank amusing. (I rather like that movie.) Spoiler alert for those have not read the movie!

*The main character seems to be attempting to reform, and is quite put out when he is forced to kill another assasin. Would this qualify as a "death attack"? And, would this set back the character's redemption?*

 

[Relique du Madde]

I say the paladin should be able to use it becasue he was already given a mandate from his diety(ies) to murder (smite) those who are corrupt and evil. So how can using the Death Attack (vs Evil) be evil when Smite (Evil) is a good act?

 

[hanniball]

Well, it's pretty solidly stated in the RAW that an intentional evil act pretty much means the Paladin loses all class abilities forever... atonement might get you back to Lawful Good but will not make you a paladin again.

Actually, it's pretty clear that atoning will make you a Paladin again.

She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.