It may be the best class their is for a one level dip, although the martial adept classes are pretty attractive for this as well. But unless, you've got gobs of hp's the AC penalty can actually be a big hinderance, often leading to the "I'm dead when I come out of rage." dillema.
Is the barbarian too front loaded?
- Thread starter frankthedm
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nittanytbone
First Post
Any melee build will have multiclass dips, because there's no reason not to and because its efficient.
For example:
Rogue 1/Ranger 2
Barb 1/Fighter 2
Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X
Paladin 3/Fighter 2
One of the bigger problems is that FIGHTER is a 2 or 4 level class, maximum. The new feats in PHB2 make it more useful for longer, but not that much. Also, melee types don't have any spellcasting progression to keep up. So, any fighter melee type will be looking to mix in something else, if for no other reason than to boost their saves. Barbarian is great if you meet the alignment prereq.
Also, the big weakness of most barbarian-dip builds is (A) MAD (you need high dex, as you're in light armor... but you also need high str and con... and your will save sucks, so you need high Wis as well), (B) Feats (Sure, extra rage helps, but its another precious feat slot), and (C) Terrible Will Saves (short of multiclassing into Occult Slayer or burning yet another feat on Iron Will, its tough to get up with this sort of multiclassing). Also, the upper level barbarian abilities such as Tireless Rage are actually fairly good -- although given enough extra books, you can do better with PrCs (Frenzied Berserker anyone?).
Spellcasters should almost never dip barbarian unless they're going for a special PrC like Rage Mage.
For example:
Rogue 1/Ranger 2
Barb 1/Fighter 2
Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X
Paladin 3/Fighter 2
One of the bigger problems is that FIGHTER is a 2 or 4 level class, maximum. The new feats in PHB2 make it more useful for longer, but not that much. Also, melee types don't have any spellcasting progression to keep up. So, any fighter melee type will be looking to mix in something else, if for no other reason than to boost their saves. Barbarian is great if you meet the alignment prereq.
Also, the big weakness of most barbarian-dip builds is (A) MAD (you need high dex, as you're in light armor... but you also need high str and con... and your will save sucks, so you need high Wis as well), (B) Feats (Sure, extra rage helps, but its another precious feat slot), and (C) Terrible Will Saves (short of multiclassing into Occult Slayer or burning yet another feat on Iron Will, its tough to get up with this sort of multiclassing). Also, the upper level barbarian abilities such as Tireless Rage are actually fairly good -- although given enough extra books, you can do better with PrCs (Frenzied Berserker anyone?).
Spellcasters should almost never dip barbarian unless they're going for a special PrC like Rage Mage.
Inconsequenti-AL
Breaks Games
I think barbarian is a little front loaded, but nothing to write home about. Compared to other classes, I don't think it's the 'strongest' choice out there. Although a lot of others encourage 2-3 levels of dipping instead?
One DM I know had exactly the same issue, along with rogues in mithral breastplates: he house ruled Mithral to require proficiency in armour type of the armour, but counted as the lighter category. i.e. Mithral Full Plate requires Heavy Armour proficiency to use without penalty, but counts as medium armour in all other respects. Simple and it might work for you?
Elder-Basilisk said:
One DM I know had exactly the same issue, along with rogues in mithral breastplates: he house ruled Mithral to require proficiency in armour type of the armour, but counted as the lighter category. i.e. Mithral Full Plate requires Heavy Armour proficiency to use without penalty, but counts as medium armour in all other respects. Simple and it might work for you?
Infiniti2000
First Post
Also, don't allow "builds". As soon as someone uses that word, I smack 'em across the head with my nearest book.el-remmen said:
Infiniti2000
First Post
Fixed that for you.Deadguy said:
nittanytbone
First Post
el-remmen said:
Multiclassing has been a part of the game since 1st edition. How else do you build a Fighter/Rogue than to use, well, fighter and rogue abilities? How else do you build a Cleric/Mage without access to the cleric and wizard classes? In 3.5, some combinations are more efficient than others (just as it was in 1E), but that doesn't make them "broken." Case in point: A pure Cleric 20 or Druid 20 is THE MOST powerful core build possible, and both stand up very well with more splatbooks as well.
c.f. The Stormwind Fallacy:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9165883&postcount=338
In this case, the RP question is, "how do I build a character that does _____ AND gets really, really angry sometimes, or who is a savage of some type?" Mechanically, the question is, "How do I build a character that does ______ AND gets some synergy with light armor usage and a strength-based attack mode?" A barbarian dip is a good answer to either or both of those questions.
In 1E (pre-UA), you could just make a Fighter and roleplay him as a barbarian type. But in 3.5, those sorts of abilities (outdoors skills, rage, running, etc) are represented by classes that give a package of thematic abilities.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
I don't really see it as front-loaded.
One Rage per day is nice, but not exactly powerful. It will give you a nice option in a tough fight, but the rest of the day you have to go on without it. Sure, you can take Extra Rage, but unless you are playing a Fighter, don't you have something else to do with your feat, especially if you really just "dip" into Barbarian and not have an integral part of the character concept.
A Fighter will have his own problems - Fast Movement is useless in heavy armor. And you still lose one feat (since you will invariably miss one of the Fighter Bonus Feats now). And I can assure you, having played a few Fighter even before PHB II - there are many nice feats out there. (Not saying that Rage isn't worth a feat, but again, if that wasn't part of the main concept of the character, you lose out).
The profiencies are not really an issue - Fighter, Ranger and Paladin offer the same benefits. Spellcaster classes essentially give you a "spell profiency" -Wiith just one level in a spellcaster class, you gain access to its spell list and can use many magic items without spending skill points on Use Magic Device.
So I'd say most classes offer equal benefits here.
One Rage per day is nice, but not exactly powerful. It will give you a nice option in a tough fight, but the rest of the day you have to go on without it. Sure, you can take Extra Rage, but unless you are playing a Fighter, don't you have something else to do with your feat, especially if you really just "dip" into Barbarian and not have an integral part of the character concept.
A Fighter will have his own problems - Fast Movement is useless in heavy armor. And you still lose one feat (since you will invariably miss one of the Fighter Bonus Feats now). And I can assure you, having played a few Fighter even before PHB II - there are many nice feats out there. (Not saying that Rage isn't worth a feat, but again, if that wasn't part of the main concept of the character, you lose out).
The profiencies are not really an issue - Fighter, Ranger and Paladin offer the same benefits. Spellcaster classes essentially give you a "spell profiency" -Wiith just one level in a spellcaster class, you gain access to its spell list and can use many magic items without spending skill points on Use Magic Device.
So I'd say most classes offer equal benefits here.
werk
First Post
I believe it is KORG SMASH!!! Who can be scared of a barbarian named after watery rum?
I think the barbar is a bit front loaded, but I would change the fast movement. The movement and weapon profs are why most my PCs dip a level of barbar...if you take out the fast movement, then you are looking at a toss-up between barbar for rage and fighter for a feat...seems more comparable to me.
Or maybe just limit the barbar's fast move to it's normal environment. Sure, KORG is fast in the woods, but he's just like everyone else in a cave or desert.
I think the barbar is a bit front loaded, but I would change the fast movement. The movement and weapon profs are why most my PCs dip a level of barbar...if you take out the fast movement, then you are looking at a toss-up between barbar for rage and fighter for a feat...seems more comparable to me.
Or maybe just limit the barbar's fast move to it's normal environment. Sure, KORG is fast in the woods, but he's just like everyone else in a cave or desert.
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