Is the barbarian too front loaded?

[Gold Roger]

Slightly frontloaded. Not enough to bother to houserule as DM, but something the next edition should adress.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Just don't allow "dipping".

I know I don't.

Basically you cut non-caster classes out then?

Its front loaded, but no big deal because the end result character will still tend to fall below your caster types.

 

[Slife]

1) As DM, I forbid one-level dips.

5) A minor way to fix perceived front-loading of the barbarian is to revoke literacy for any character with a level of barbarian. Your wizard took a level of barbarian? Oh, I'm sorry you can't use your scrolls until you burn two skill points and take a bath!

1) So, characters always have to take at least two levels in every class, regardless of how it interacts with their character concept. Man, it would really suck to be level drained after you got the second level of barbarian, and have to regain a level you didn't want anyway.

5) Oops! I suddenly forgot how to read! Wow! That happens ALL the time in the real world

 

[CRGreathouse]

Hmm, I wonder what gave you that idea? The fact that every single non-lawful fighter in the history of the game seems to have one level of barbarian? No. It couldn't be that...

Wow, your experiences differ from mine very strongly. I've seen many fighters with no barbarian levels (non-lawful and otherwise), a few fighter/barbarians with roughly equal levels, one or two barbarians that 'dipped' fighter, and no characters (or perhaps one, a long time ago) that just 'dipped' barbarian.

'Dipping' into Fighter is more common IMC. Of course I don't discourage that if it fits the character (an X becoming a 'martial X', generally).

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Front loaded? Nah. Not barbaric enough? Definitely.

 

[Sejs]

One DM I know had exactly the same issue, along with rogues in mithral breastplates: he house ruled Mithral to require proficiency..

I actually do that as well. Mithral armor's counted as one category lighter for movement and purposes of determining if special abilities can be used while wearing it, but it doesn't change the armor proficiency required.

Just because the metal used in its construction is lighter doesn't mean there arn't plates and straps and mail in places you need to learn how to move with. Running in a chain shirt and running in a suit of platemail require you to move differently. Adjust to the different arcs of motion allowed or restricted by the armor. That's what proficiency covers, and the metal itself being less weighty doesn't affect that. It's a structure issue, not a material issue.

 

[Aaron L]

Not really. Unless you consider Fighters with their free feats at 1st and 2nd level to be too front loaded, too.

I mean, a free feat, martial weapons, and light, medium, AND heavy armor, plus all shields including tower shields!!


So no, I don't think Barbarians are too front loaded.

Actually, I think they're about the best example of how to spread out class abilities across all levels, from low to high, of all the Core classes.


[edit] The more I read on the internet, the more amazed I get at all these people "out there" who apparently take one level of this or one level of that for just the class abilities, or come up with weird feat combos to abuse the rules, or just generally try to break and exploit the system. I've never encountered anything like this in my entire career of gaming. It's weird. [/edit]

 

[Bad Paper]

Man, it would really suck to be level drained after you got the second level of barbarian, and have to regain a level you didn't want anyway.

When you lose a level, you lose it from the class with the highest number of levels. Your situation would only apply to a third-level PC dropped to second. If you're that low of level, you have other things about which to worry, and you'll get that level back in the blink of an eye. If "you didn't want [Barbarian 2] anyway," then you shouldn't have taken the class at all. That's the point of the rule.

I suddenly forgot how to read! Wow! That happens ALL the time in the real world

It's amazing that you discovered some sort of incongruity between this game and the real world! I wonder how often that happens.

Every class has some kind of penalty built in: you can't wear metal armor, or you have a crappy skill list, or you need to lug this damn spellbook around. Barbarian is the only class that has a penalty (Illiteracy) that disappears if you take another class before taking barbarian. My houserule fixes that, and reflects the wizard's extra effort to "keep in shape" while learning the fine art of barbarianism. This also reflects my flavor preference: that a barbarian/wizard is just weird.

The more I read on the internet, the more amazed I get at all these people "out there" who apparently take one level of this or one level of that for just the class abilities, or come up with weird feat combos to abuse the rules, or just generally try to break and exploit the system.

I once made a grapple monkey that was a monk/ranger/wizard/fleshwarper. Yeah, we do these things. What else is there to do but break the system?

 

[Nail]

I just say Breast plate and Fullplate don't get reduced weight catagory at all because their limitations come from the plates being too solid and interlocked. Loe and behold, You'll actually see someone in Mithral Half Plate and Mithral Banded mail! Though mithral Splint mail would still suck...

Tangent: IMO, the special material "mithral" has become "just another required mechanic" of 3.xe D&D, so that higher level PCs can get better armor. (How many builds have we all seen that require armor or shields of mithral?) That just rubs me the wrong way.

I'd rather the mechanics of mithral (better movement, lower ASF, higher Max dex, lower skill penalty) be tranfered to feats or to magic item properties.

YMMV.

 

[Enforcer]

Is the barbarian too front loaded? I am starting to think Fast movement, Rage, all martial weapons and light & medium armor makes Barbarian just a little too tempting to “One Dip” into.

I think you can't really count the armor and martial weapon proficiencies if they're dipping to power up a full-BAB melee build--chances are pretty high that they'll get they same abilities from their "main" class. All that's left is the rage and fast movement (and if taken at character level 1, the d12 hit points and better-than-a-fighter's skill points). As many have mentioned, fast movement is limited by heavy armor, making the Fighter/Barbarian mix less appealing until they can afford mithral full plate (which is far more expensive than boots of striding and springing would be). With just rage left as an issue, that doesn't really bother me. If it's a Fighter/Barb, they're losing/delaying a feat. If a Ranger, they're delaying Combat Style, spellcasting and Favored Enemy. I think it's balanced.

If they're a spellcaster, taking a non-caster level is in itself balanced in my opinion. Even a one level delay for the next level of spells is pretty painful.

I think the only place the Barbarian 1 abilities might be a little overpowered is with Rogues. The Rogue gets +1BAB, Rage, Fast Movement, Medium Armor Prof., Martial Weapons, and twice the hit die, at the cost of skill points and delayed Sneak Attack increases and other special abilities. Pretty good deal I think.

But yes, in my campaigns any multiclassing needs to be justified through Roleplaying. Having the cool and confident skillmaster Rogue who strikes from the shadows suddenly become a psychopathic engine of death with a greataxe needs an in-character explanation.