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Is the Burning Wheel "how to play" advice useful for D&D?

Nagol

Unimportant
So I know this thread kinda petered out, but anyway, here's a statement from Burning Wheel:

"Nothing happens in the game world that doesn't involve a player character."

What is being stated and what is being implied by that statement? Would adhering to that statement cause a change in your game?

It would cause a huge change in my game. In addition to providing feedback of their efforts to date, the evolving world is the primary way players receive hook invitations and notification of stake changes.

For example, the player may hear the nearby town of Durbindale has scattered reports of undead trickling out of the woods. The PCs decide to do nothing about it because they're busy.

Next the PCs hear the town of Durbindale is under siege by a lich commanding an undead army and wielding some form of magical staff. The PCs decide to investigate once thier current mission is done.

A week goes by and the PCs hear that the town of Durbindale was overrun by undead and a new much larger undead army is marching on DaleDurbin. In addition to the lich, several mummies are seen in the ranks.

So far the PCs aren't involved, but they could have been at any stage if they so chose. They can decide to engage, flee, advise, or anything else they can envision or do nothing and let the situation resolve itself one way or another.
 

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Nytmare

David Jose
"Nothing happens in the game world that doesn't involve a player character."

I think that it's really easy to misunderstand that that sentence means in regards to what Burning Wheel is trying to do. It's not saying that the world beyond the bounds of what the characters can see and hear is in stasis, waiting till they get within eye and earshot. It's saying that changes to the game world that are not meant to poke and prod at the characters, and especially the characters' beliefs and instincts can be ignored by the game master.

As for Nagol's example, the Burning Wheel would suggest either not littering the landscape with things that the players are going to ignore, or more to the point, make it so that the players want to pay attention to it.

I always see Instincts and Beliefs almost like an adventure "wish list." You should be able to see what kind of game and story the players are hoping for. Is there a character that lives to root out and destroy the undead? Someone who races to the defense of helpless people at almost any cost? Someone hunting for a powerful magical staff that was lost somewhere in the nearby area?

There's nothing about that sentence that would prevent you from dangling hooks in front of your players, it's just telling you to make sure that the hook is baited with things that they'd bite at.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
So I know this thread kinda petered out, but anyway, here's a statement from Burning Wheel:

"Nothing happens in the game world that doesn't involve a player character."

What is being stated and what is being implied by that statement? Would adhering to that statement cause a change in your game?

It would cause a substantial change because I do usually have events transpiring in the background that PCs may elect to get involved in or not. If they don't get involved, the events still occur. I very much prefer that sort of game, in which the world exists and has its own heartbeat. We've often played in campaigns like this since the early 1980s. We would bring different characters in and out of active play, mixing and matching up groups to take on evil as it rose up all as part of one long campaign.

Generally, I don't like the idea that nothing happens unless the characters or, as a player, my character group are involved. I don't feel like I'm immersed in a real setting. While it may be true that everything going on in the game really is for my benefit as a player, I want to have the impression that my character is part of a broader story, part of a larger ongoing concern and not just the current scene or plot thread.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
I think that it's really easy to misunderstand that that sentence means in regards to what Burning Wheel is trying to do. It's not saying that the world beyond the bounds of what the characters can see and hear is in stasis, waiting till they get within eye and earshot. It's saying that changes to the game world that are not meant to poke and prod at the characters, and especially the characters' beliefs and instincts can be ignored by the game master.

As for Nagol's example, the Burning Wheel would suggest either not littering the landscape with things that the players are going to ignore, or more to the point, make it so that the players want to pay attention to it.

I always see Instincts and Beliefs almost like an adventure "wish list." You should be able to see what kind of game and story the players are hoping for. Is there a character that lives to root out and destroy the undead? Someone who races to the defense of helpless people at almost any cost? Someone hunting for a powerful magical staff that was lost somewhere in the nearby area?

There's nothing about that sentence that would prevent you from dangling hooks in front of your players, it's just telling you to make sure that the hook is baited with things that they'd bite at.

And that's great when you have a mechanism where the GM can reasonably know what the players want to pay attention to -- disadvantage in CHAMPIONS, beliefs and instincts in BW. It also helps if the campagn is set up so the PCs are primarily reactive.

I can guess what my players will react to based upon a few tells, but it's no where near an exact science. In addition, I don't track how the players are prioritising ther agendas and what lenses they are filtering the incoming information through. All I know is what ties if any the PCs have developed with the situation and what the PCs are currently planning. They get to make the (hopefully) meaningful decisions of what to do and when to do it.

Once the hook is baited and cast ("Undead in Durbinsdale! Home of friends, allies, and rivals!") then the PCs make a choice about how to respond. If they choose not to engage then the situation needs to play itself out so that choice can be meaningful and determine what the next set of hooks may be. Their choices and the effects on the world will affect how the world reacts to them even and in some cases especially if they decide to remain uninvolved. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!"
 

Celebrim

Legend
So I know this thread kinda petered out, but anyway, here's a statement from Burning Wheel:

"Nothing happens in the game world that doesn't involve a player character."

What is being stated and what is being implied by that statement? Would adhering to that statement cause a change in your game?

Without seeing the context, I can't really answer definitively.

I think it is being implied that since the story is about the player characters, everything about your preparation to play or play should be focused on the player characters. At one level, I find that a very obvious statement. At another level, I think that strictly adhering to that would be very difficult in practice especially if you wanted to avoid railroading a player and especially if you want to make the story meaningful. The word 'involve' here is so vague, that I think in practice it will be defined in a lot of different ways and as a constraint is almost meaningless. For example, at the start of 'The Lord of the Rings', Sauron's attack on Gondor profoundly involves Sam Gamgee and has huge implications for his future, but neither Sauron nor Sam can possibly know or foresee this. At some point these events must be assumed to have occured either before or during a particular session, as Sam's story progresses. This means that 'involve' doesn't mean that the only things that happen in the game world are the things he can immediately percieve. Rather, I think the meaning is closer to the fact that Tolkien doesn't bother to tell the important stories of Dain's war in the North or Celeborn's cleansing of Mirkwood even though his world is alive enough he can imagine them happening, because they aren't really immediately pertinent to the story being told. It's not that things don't happen, it's that we don't have to distract the players with them if they aren't part of the core story.

Likewise, Harry Potter is profoundly involved in the life of a man named Tom Riddle, but it will be many years before he really understands how much his past which we may think of as being briefly sketched by the player as 'my parents died in a car accident (*wink*) and I'm an orphan' and his future is linked to the offstage actions of Tom Riddle, Sirius Blank, Severus Snape, and others. Think how much poorer the story would be if none of those connections existed, or how much poorer the experience would be as reader if we knew them all ahead of time.

As I see it, BW is about giving the players meaningful choices backed by a dynamic action resolution system that intends at least to create meaningful choices, be cinematic, and pile on the tension to make the moment where the fortune is determined - the roll of the dice - exciting every time. There are a lot of games you could make out of that system, but it seems like the default game - the one explicitly affirmed and blessed by the text - is about two things - first, exploration of character through a sort of simulation of basic personality including provisions for tracking growth and change (along side more traditional mechanical growth and change) and second, a sort of versimiltude to the source material of fantasy fiction (the "accuracy" spoken of in the introduction). Of course, even that is a really broad pallette for creating games. What fantasy fiction are you inspired by? Tolkien? Leiber? Moorcock? Brother's Grimm? GRR Martin? Kirosawa? D&D? What sort of assumptions do you have about the role of character in such fiction? Are your characters mythic and archetypal? Are they assumed to be on a hero's journey? Is Bilungsroman consciously or unconsciously your default model for fantasy fiction?

Oddly enough, the character burner - with its elves and dwarfs and other stock fantasy elements - seems to assume that the primary purpose of the game is to better emulate D&D than D&D does.

The character burning system is designed to create mechanical linkage between the character and a backstory, strongly encouraging the player to engage in backstory authority. As the game has evolved, it seems to have moved from 'beliefs as ethos' to beliefs as 'forestory authority' where the player not only includes a stake in the belief, but a future course of action and as a way of cueing the GM in on the sort of direction he wants to take the character in.

But its not at all clear to me that the best way to achieve these goals is 'No Myth' or 'No prep' or any thing else of the sort. Nor is it really clear to me that something as vague as that advice would really change how I approach the game. For one thing, I never assume - even with a player cue - that the player will bite on any particular hook or choose to follow up on it. All I can do is dangle stories and hope to get players running to engage them rather than running out of them. Once you get engagement, then you try to provide some more of the same and follow on player direction. But I think that it is a bit ridiculous to imagine the world as empty or static save in the exact spot a PC stands, and won't make much of a story.
 

@Nagol and @billd91

Thanks for the answers. I get where you're both coming from. My follow up question would be - given the changes you feel would happen, would you expect anything positive to come from adhering to the Burning Wheel statement? And what do you feel you would lose?

I think that it's really easy to misunderstand that that sentence means in regards to what Burning Wheel is trying to do. It's not saying that the world beyond the bounds of what the characters can see and hear is in stasis, waiting till they get within eye and earshot. It's saying that changes to the game world that are not meant to poke and prod at the characters, and especially the characters' beliefs and instincts can be ignored by the game master.

I certainly agree that it's a statement which could have multiple interpretations. So I don't disagree with yours, but I think maybe there are alternatives.

It's not saying that the world beyond the bounds of what the characters can see and hear is in stasis, waiting till they get within eye and earshot.

is interesting to examine. Because it could be said that 'the world' in any rpg is only present while it is being jointly imagined - ie while play is happening. And that it comes into existence by people proposing things and having them affirmed or denied by the group. In that sense 'the world' is made up of the focus of group imagination at a particular time and the collective memory of past proposals being accepted or rejected. Is 'the world' ever moving or in stasis? Or does it remain undefined up until the moment someone focuses attention on some part of it during play?

I think billd91 was quite subtle (I mean that in the sense of perceptive or astute) in saying he wants 'the impression' of a 'larger, ongoing concern'. Can anyone say where these impressions come from or are they part of what we mean by creative agenda or playstyle preference?

It's saying that changes to the game world that are not meant to poke and prod at the characters, and especially the characters' beliefs and instincts can be ignored by the game master.

Yes, I think it can mean that. But again, I think it can mean something else. Because we could ask the question 'Who decides if a player character is involved?'

I would suggest it is the player. So I think you're correct that if the GM can offer 'hooks' with a 100 per cent success rate you end up with play in which the Burning Wheel statement is adhered to.

An alternative is to let the player make the first move and thereby dictate the direction of play. I see this as distinct from what is commonly seen as a 'player offers the GM a hook'. I'd suggest Beliefs allow the player to launch directly into action without the GM saying anything or offering anything beyond what was established by the group during set-up. Play can be driven by pro-activity or reactivity on the part of the players. I read the BW statement as a call for players to be pro-active from the very start of Act 1 Scene 1, and for GMs to react, to make them fight for what they believe.
 
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Nagol

Unimportant
@Nagol and @billd91

Thanks for the answers. I get where you're both coming from. My follow up question would be - given the changes you feel would happen, would you expect anything positive to come from adhering to the Burning Wheel statement? And what do you feel you would lose?
<snip>

I GM a lot of different systems. I use scene framing and styles closer to BW for Strands of FATE, some CHAMPIONS, and Teenagers from Outer Space. I'd also use these techniques if I were willing to run horror genre. Ars Magica and Pendragon also skirt closer to this line than D&D.

It's not so much getting something positive as it is picking a style that supports the game experience I want from a particular campaign. I find very strong PC focus, scene-framing, et al. are great for dealing with games with a strong inward focus on character personality, the relationship between the PCs, and inward struggles. Games that offer strong definition of those aspects are the games I use these techniques in.

When I'm running D&D, I'm not looking for that form of game. The game engine offers very limited PC definition in these areas and almost no resolution mechanisms for these forms of conflict. When I'm running D&D, I'm looking to focus on proactive engagement and struggles against the environment -- both in the 'dungeon' and in the wider world the PCs occupy. That is where D&D spends its strength and energy providing resolution and definitional systems.
 

Celebrim

Legend
it could be said that 'the world' in any rpg is only present while it is being jointly imagined - ie while play is happening. And that it comes into existence by people proposing things and having them affirmed or denied by the group. In that sense 'the world' is made up of the focus of group imagination at a particular time and the collective memory of past proposals being accepted or rejected. Is 'the world' ever in moving or in stasis? Or does it remain undefined up until the moment someone focuses attention on some part of it during play?

Ok, I think I understand where you are going now and how you understand the advice.

I'm not sure 'undefined' is the only quality to consider. Something can be defined, but still be flexible, in that as long as you haven't introduced it you can still change it. Something can be defined, but also be unrefined, in that you may have a notion in a broad outline but not have imagined out all the particular details.

Also keep in mind that even by your terms, things exist outside of the knowledge of anyone at the table. People at the table, especially but not exclusively the storyteller, can know things about the scene that aren't revealed to anyone else - and therefore exist in the world but NOT within the groups shared imaginative space. Therefore we can never say the whole world is in the group's collective imaginative space alone. What exists in a collective space might be only the tip of a very large unrevealed iceberg.

By your understanding of what it means, I think i can take a stab at the question.

What you gain by being flexible is that if you see that your original conception is definately going to not work out, you can always switch to something that might. I might point out though that this doesn't necessarily have to be approached as changing the setting. Often it is enough to change your plans about the mechanical resolution of the player's interaction with the setting.

What you put at risk is a player's sense of accomplishment, the player's trust, your own ability to remain unbiased and neutral, and to a certain extent the ability to surprise the player. I also find that often during a session as a DM it's easy to lose confidence in your self and panic, and that often you don't make the best of decisions when paniced, stressed, hurried, or harried. Many of the times when I've waved my story teller wand behind the screen to change my original conception, it's been something I've regretted, making the scene worse rather than better.

Ultimately, should you come armed with firm ideas, should you invent on the fly, should you change your ideas, or stick to your plans are decisions with no easy right or wrong answer. If the goal is to make the best possible game, I think it would be a mistake to say, "You should always act this way." There are too many circumstances where that would be wrong. The trouble is, since we can't see the future, we are always going to make some mistakes. I think what can happen though is a player or storyteller can be the victim of one of those mistakes, ruining the game, and thereafter they assume that the problem is with the tool, and not the application of the tool. There are some tools that I would strongly caution players against using, in the same way I might caution a writer against using sentence fragments. But I would never tell an artist, "Never do this." I would strongly discourage for example using railroading techniques. There are times however when a railroading technique can be used as a form of player empowerment or to escape potential pitfalls along the way, that no one, not even the players would want. The trick is knowing when to use what, how to use it skillfully, and not getting too locked into the idea that there is one right way to achieve a particular goal.

Yes, I think it can mean that. But again, I think it can mean something else. Because we could ask the question 'Who decides if a player character is involved?'

I would suggest it is the player. So I think you're correct that if the GM can offer 'hooks' with a 100 per cent success rate you end up with play in which the Burning Wheel statement is adhered to.

Again, the GM isn't a prophet. Besides which, this is strictly speaking wrong. A GM that gets 100% bite rates on his hooks almost certianly doesn't have players that feel empowed to make important choices. He has players that think they don't have any choice but go along with the DM's ideas. No matter how much you are playing to player interests, you'll never get things 100% right.

I'd suggest Beliefs allow the player to launch directly into action without the GM saying anything or offering anything beyond what was established by the group during set-up.

You don't need mechanics for proactive play.

I read the BW statement as a call for players to be pro-active from the very start of Act 1 Scene 1, and for GMs to react, to make them fight for what they believe.

I believe that that is the BW author's intention. Whether or not that statement says anything of the sort no its own, I'm very skeptical of. Whether any given player can simply be proactive is a wholly different matter. In my experience, a proactive player is proactive regardless of the system. The trick to allowing proactivity in my experience is to provide a detailed sandbox, with the expectation of refining the detail depending on player action. It would require an extraordinary GM to improv a sandbox for a proactive player and not end up with either a rowboat world or an unsatisfying thin gruel of validated expectations fed back to the player. If you don't put enough toys in the sandbox, it's very hard for even an creative player to be inspired enough to be successful. I have definately played under improv DMs where both I and the DM could never quite get a finger on where to go with each other's direction, and in retrospect I've seen things I could have done that just didn't occur to me at the time. And I've gone home as a DM having improv'd a scene to an unhappy conclusion, sit down to record the results write about what to do next and just smacked myself on the forehead because I overlooked something I probably wouldn't have overlooked had I made better contingencies. On the other hand, some players simply aren't proactive by inclination. You have to prompt them into action, and they have varying degrees of inertia once moving. You can't dump a bunch of sand (or even legos) in to their lap and say 'build something', whereas if you present them with a problem and a pile of junk to solve the problem with they will come up with a creative solution.
 

am181d

Adventurer
I find very strong PC focus, scene-framing, et al. are great for dealing with games with a strong inward focus on character personality, the relationship between the PCs, and inward struggles. Games that offer strong definition of those aspects are the games I use these techniques in.

When I'm running D&D, I'm not looking for that form of game. The game engine offers very limited PC definition in these areas and almost no resolution mechanisms for these forms of conflict.

And that's the reason why I think D&D is great for games like that. I'm generally not looking for the game system to provide rules for that stuff...
 

Nagol

Unimportant
And that's the reason why I think D&D is great for games like that. I'm generally not looking for the game system to provide rules for that stuff...

At least half the rules in more inward-focused games drive making the character drivers visible to the GM and the table while at the same time giving everyone a common expectation of where play is likley to go and the effective level of difficulty to overcome the challenges. I find they realy help in helping me determine what scenes make sense, are engaging, and offer reasonable tension for the table.
 

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