D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[Alzrius]

If someone is declaring that a particular design goal is impossible--as Max explicitly did--then it should not matter whether it is in the context of video games or tabletop games or board games.

You lost me right at the first sentence. Maybe I missed something in a previous post, but I thought it was pretty well understood that the discussion was taking place with regard to D&D, and that any assertions made about design goals were understood to be within that particular context. Given the intrinsic differences between tabletop RPGs and video games, I'm pretty sure that does matter.

 

[Haplo781]

You lost me right at the first sentence. Maybe I missed something in a previous post, but I thought it was pretty well understood that the discussion was taking place with regard to D&D, and that any assertions made about design goals were understood to be within that particular context. Given the intrinsic differences between tabletop RPGs and video games, I'm pretty sure that does matter.

What is it about D&D specifically that makes it more impossible to balance than anything else?

Bad argument.

 

[Irlo]

Balance = perfect balance. Period. It cannot mean anything else and still meet the definition of balanced.

There are a number of definitions of balanced. Of course the word can mean other things.

I would suggest that when most of us talk about game balance, we don't mean a precisely and objectively measured metric, but rather something a lot more like work-life balance. Work-life balance is NOT an exact 50%-50% perfect equal split for most people. And most people have a different idea of what that balance should be. Balance is not an objective metric.

 

[lingual]

What is it about D&D specifically that makes it more impossible to balance than anything else?

Bad argument.

I imagine since the game is so widespread and generally settings agnostic that different tables can vary widely from one another. It's probably more disected and analyzed than other games too?

 

[Alzrius]

What is it about D&D specifically that makes it more impossible to balance than anything else?

Bad argument.

"Impossible" is a binary state; something's either possible or it's not. You can't have something be "more impossible" than something else.

Leaving that aside, the premise of your question is flawed, because I haven't asserted that D&D is "more impossible" to balance, let alone that it's "more impossible" to balance than anything else.

I'm simply pointing out that discussing balance with regard to video games brings little of worth to a discussion about how to balance D&D, which strikes me as being an uncontroversial position to take. But once again, the Internet manages to surpass my expectations when it comes to what people will disagree with each other over.

 

[Maxperson]

There are a number of definitions of balanced. Of course the word can mean other things.

I would suggest that when most of us talk about game balance, we don't mean a precisely and objectively measured metric, but rather something a lot more like work-life balance. Work-life balance is NOT an exact 50%-50% perfect equal split for most people. And most people have a different idea of what that balance should be. Balance is not an objective metric.

Yes, but even though people do use the word like that, using the word like that is an incorrect usage. When I balance my work life with my social life, what I am doing is kinda, sorta balancing it for the most part. It's not balanced. When people say an RPG is balanced, they are misusing the term. No RPG is balanced. They should say what they mean, which is "This game closely matches the level of imbalance that I prefer." or "This game gets very close to being balanced, which is how I like it."

 

[Haplo781]

"Impossible" is a binary state; something's either possible or it's not. You can't have something be "more impossible" than something else.

Congratulations on finding the point.

 

[Alzrius]

Congratulations on finding the point.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same to you.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There are a number of definitions of balanced. Of course the word can mean other things.

I would suggest that when most of us talk about game balance, we don't mean a precisely and objectively measured metric, but rather something a lot more like work-life balance. Work-life balance is NOT an exact 50%-50% perfect equal split for most people. And most people have a different idea of what that balance should be. Balance is not an objective metric.

Don't bother. Max has extremely rigid definitions, and if anyone disagrees with them, they're wrong. Even if you literally give him dictionary citations, the dictionaries are wrong and he's right. Even if you cite decades of precedent for a word being used a certain way, they're wrong and he's right.

It's not worth spending your time and effort.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm simply pointing out that discussing balance with regard to video games brings little of worth to a discussion about how to balance D&D, which strikes me as being an uncontroversial position to take. But once again, the Internet manages to surpass my expectations when it comes to what people will disagree with each other over.

I was not attempting to demonstrate HOW to balance D&D. Yes, it is a different thing, working by different rules. I was demonstrating that balance is not impossible in the generic, which was the argument presented.

You can either assert--hopefully, with more than just the bald assertion--that TTRPGs or D&D specifically are somehow special, and thus it's irrelevant that other kinds of games can be balanced, or you can assert that I'm simply wrong and that my example fails to actually refute the impossibility of game design balance.

But to respond to an argument about whether it is possible to make game balance at all with "well that doesn't help us figure out how to do it with D&D!" is a non sequitur at best.