D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[MichaelSomething]

For the 4th time, I'll happily run a high level (lets go 17th this time) one shot, cleaving closely to the DMG encounter creation/ adventuring day guidelines, and ill run it for 5 of you.

I bet you London to a Brick the Wizard is not OP compared to the other PCs.

One of the issues is that lots of people hate running/playing under the assumptions the rules describe. The eight encounter day a big example. Is it the fault of the Rule writers for making something too stiff or players for ignoring the rules?

Edit: I got ninjaed by the above post!

 

[Maxperson]

I'll give you that one. I love magic in that system!

I've been curious about that system. What's it like?

 

[Flamestrike]

Asking this question makes the opposite instantly true.

Again, it always seems like the people who complain the loudest are the ones too scared to actually want to demonstrate this so called imbalance.

The imbalance only exists, because DMs dont DM high level games, and dont know how to run high level casters.

Or in other words, its a DM problem, not an inherent feature of the Wizard.

Again, I run high level games, and I know the shennanigans. Im more than happy to literally run a game with a Wizard and 3-4 other PC's at literally any level and prove the 'Wizards are inherently unbalanced' line to be be a total lie.

 

[Umbran]

Yeah. The literally 3 times now I have ran (on here) a PbP high level campaign at levels 7, 13 and 15. In none of those one shots, were the casters OP in any way, shape or form.

Actual empirical evidence, instead of the standard handwringing on here.

Empirical evidence isn't much without statistical relevance, which your personal games do not provide.

As in - your games can show no sign of a problem, but it can still be a problem.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think this goes back to what I said my first comment in the thread.

The DMG Guidelines for adventure are very unpopular BUT the only way to balance a full caster the way D&D fans want casters.

Have Cake and Eat Cake.

D&D fans want Super Casters but don't want to be force into long dungeons when the DM is more antagonistic against them in obstacles and treasure.

The question is this setup deliberately and purposely crafted to be this way or an accident of the community preferences blowing it up.

Exactly. A Wizard (or indeed any Long rest dependent class) will dominate in a 5MWD.

My adventure I propose is NOT a 5MWD. It will cleave to the DMG 6 or so encounters, 2 short rests, Adventuring day.

 

[Flamestrike]

Empirical evidence isn't much without statistical relevance, which your personal games do not provide.

As in - your games can show no sign of a problem, but it can still be a problem.

I've yet to see any statistical evidence from the 'Wizards are God' camp either. In the 8 years of these threads being posted.

A lot of Schroedingers wizard arguments, and thats about it.

Shall we compare DPR over a 6-8 encounter AD, featuring 2-3 short rests, between the Wizard, Fighter and Rogue?

Fighter wins.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Again, it always seems like the people who complain the loudest are the ones too scared to actually want to demonstrate this so called imbalance.

Or don't have time to run simulations for other people's edification.

 

[Umbran]

No, 4e doesn't produce a balanced game.

I played 4e extensively. Suppose we start with per-essentials.

Mod Note:
Suppose, instead, we remember this thread is not about banging heads together over 4e. This thread is about the design of 5e.

So, let us bring it back to topic, please and thanks.

 

[Flamestrike]

Or don't have time to run simulations for other people's edification.

A simulation (for mine) beats the handwringing with zero evidence. It's evidence of a sort at least.

Particularly when the results are similar for multiple simulations, across varying levels of play.

I've run three so far, and I'll run another. At literally any level.

It's a form of evidence. I've yet to see any actual evidence put forward by the 'Wizards are God' camp at all.

 

[Umbran]

Again, it always seems like the people ...

Mod Note:
Stop making it about the people. If you can't stick to the logic and reasoning, please step away.

This goes for everyone - far too many of you are making personal comments, or otherwise getting snippy. Do not continue that trend. Take a break if you can't be respectful about it.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'd bet London to a Brick that those of you with 'Wizards are God' experiences at your tables (and I agree that there are a few of you out there, this thread pops up in one form or another every day or two) have one of the following things messing up your results (or both of them):

1) DM inexperienced with high level play
2) Not cleaving to the 6-8 encounter/ 2 -3 short rest Adventuring day median.

That's the cause of the problem. It's not an inherent feature of the Wizard.

 

[Umbran]

If I've harassed anyone or threadcrapped I apologize and should be reported.

Mod Note:
You have been reported several times at this point.

Please reconsider how you are engaging in this topic.

 

[Minigiant]

Exactly. A Wizard (or indeed any Long rest dependent class) will dominate in a 5MWD.

My adventure I propose is NOT a 5MWD. It will cleave to the DMG 6 or so encounters, 2 short rests, Adventuring day.

But people don't like only running long dungeons.

"I don't wanna be forced to run long dungeons"
"Well then we gotta trim the casters spells slots or force them to prepare directly into them or trim down their library"
"No. I like it with those restrictions off"
"Well you can't have Super Mages and Short Dungeons".
"Not even a little"
"If you want D&D to be balanced for short days where wizard actually get treasure before level 10, the casters will need a skeleton similar to the fight-"
"No no no. No!

 

[TheSword]

Not accidental… it’s incidental.

Any suitably complex system will have potential imbalances. A dozen+ classes, subclasses, races, spells, magic items and feats. Not to mention the imbalance a Dungeon Master provides, different genres, low magic, monty haul, gritty fantasy, high fantasy, Ravnica, Strixhaven, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft. Give me a break. It was never going to be perfectly balanced, there are too many moving parts.

That’s why we have DMs… because it’s not Cluedo or Game of Life. The DM curates the fun, because the rules alone can’t do it.

Perfect balance in quality RPG’s if a myth. Nonetheless, 5e gets as close as I have seen it.

 

[Flamestrike]

But people don't like only running long dungeons.

Use a rest variant.

5E is balanced around the 6-8 encounter, 2 short rest AD. If you stray from this baseline, and only ever have single encounter 5 minute work day AD's, and experience balance issues (namely from Long rest classes like the Wizard pwning Short rest classes like the Fighter, Warlock and Monk), that's not a feature of the Wizard class itself, it's down the DM straying from the baseline adventuring day guidelines.

So my point stands. The cause of the phenomena (and I agree it exists at some tables) is down to choices made by the DM and/or the group not sticking to the AD guidelines.

 

[HammerMan]

My adventure I propose is NOT a 5MWD. It will cleave to the DMG 6 or so encounters, 2 short rests, Adventuring day.

As much as I know I will regret this. How do you enforce how many short tests can be taken?

 

[Flamestrike]

As much as I know I will regret this. How do you enforce how many short tests can be taken?

Doom clocks, environmental constraints, reactive bad guys.

Occasionally telling off the players for attempting to game the rest mechanic, with a firm but gentle 'No'.

My players know not to try and game the system at my table though so the latter is rare.

 

[SakanaSensei]

But people don't like only running long dungeons.

"I don't wanna be forced to run long dungeons"
"Well then we gotta trim the casters spells slots or force them to prepare directly into them or trim down their library"
"No. I like it with those restrictions off"
"Well you can't have Super Mages and Short Dungeons".
"Not even a little"
"If you want D&D to be balanced for short days where wizard actually get treasure before level 10, the casters will need a skeleton similar to the fight-"
"No no no. No!

My fix has been lots of homebrew buffs to martials to give them at the very LEAST some solid contribution in fights. (Minions from MCDMs Flee, Mortals that lets weapon attacks cleave, a modified version of Mighty Deeds from DCC, a modified version of shock damage from WWN, etc.) Then, I need to run mostly huge battles where they make sense narratively, such that action economy is the bigger nozzle through which resources get restricted, because casters are straight never gonna run out of spell slots. Casters get to feel broken, martials get lots of consolation prizes.

Unfortunately, unless the new wave of fans gives a lot of feedback on this particular issue (and it is an issue, no matter how often people want to jam fingers in ears and lalala it out of existence) I don’t see anything changing.

 

[HammerMan]

(namely from Long rest classes like the Wizard pwning Short rest classes like the Fighter, Warlock and Monk),

Funny you mention warlock. In every thread I watch as it gets brought up as just as good as a full caster.

So my point stands. The cause of the phenomena (and I agree it exists at some tables) is down to choices made by the DM and/or the group not sticking to the AD guidelines.

 

[HammerMan]

Doom clocks, environmental constraints, reactive bad guys.

Okay then I’m out I was considering saying I would play but that kind of DM heavy handedness isn’t for me.