I'd agree that the 6-8 encounter standard is the fault of buffs to the full casters.That's my point. It's not the fault of the Wizard class. The cause of the problem lies elsewhere.
I'd agree that the 6-8 encounter standard is the fault of buffs to the full casters.That's my point. It's not the fault of the Wizard class. The cause of the problem lies elsewhere.
What about new DMs? Are they well equipped to deal with what you call 'shenanigans'? Should the game support 'shenanigans' at all?
I played a level 5-6 Shepperd Druid and grew bored because of how easy it got after a while... I think it's just a problem with the expected encounter structure and the nature of spell casters in DnD.
I blame the rest structure.
Martials just plain aren't allowed to do cool things while the wizard gets a literal catalogue of cool things to do.
"I attack. I attack. I attack."Other than beat a T-rex or Balor to death with my fists, or literally fall into a volcano or from a 20 storey building and survive.
Those are pretty cool things.
"I attack. I attack. I attack."
"I passively subtract some numbers and they don't become 0"
Thrilling.
I think it is neither.The question is this setup deliberately and purposely crafted to be this way or an accident of the community preferences blowing it up.
And those who don't don't count?It is to a lot of players.
A significant number of people who play this game just want to roll dice and deal big damage and smack things hard. They dont want spells or complexity or resource management of slots and stuff.
Let's see...I bet you even have one at your table. Most do.
Use a rest variant.
As much as I know I will regret this. How do you enforce how many short tests can be taken?
Doom clocks, environmental constraints, reactive bad guys.
Occasionally telling off the players for attempting to game the rest mechanic, with a firm but gentle 'No'.
My players know not to try and game the system at my table though so the latter is rare.
I'd rather they design the game to better reflect how people actually play rather than every encounter day being like a month of sessions to get through.
Several people have already granted that if the DM is both (a) enforcing well-known, albeit almost universally disliked, rules of the game, and (b) actively antagonistic to spellcasters, then things will generally not be favorable to spellcasters anymore.Many that have this problem of 'Wizards are God' have it because they get 5 minute work days, often by DMs that dont know better, prefer single encounter days, or know how to DM high level play.
Im not one of those DM's.
That's why I said both.I think it is neither.
I think the designer intent is absolutely to deliver a reasonable, balanced, equitable game where everyone contributes meaningfully and no one has an inherent leg up nor needs special DM intervention.
However, I also think that this result is not some totally unforeseeable unfortunate accident that could never have been avoided or dealt with.
Instead, as I've said, I think it's the combination of several factors:
1. Intentionally doing things that sound positive and beneficial in isolation but which link together to produce problems.
2. Preserving, reviving, or enhancing "tradition" without actually examining whether that tradition is beneficial, or whether it has aspects that could be mitigated.
3. Subconscious motives that encourage greater power for spellcasting and no gain (or even sometimes loss) of power for non-spellcasting.
4. Biased thinking, particularly biases built on thinking everyone will play in certain ways or deal with problems in the same fashion.
5. Faulty understanding/application of statistics and mathematics more generally.
6. Failure to account for player psychology in the design.
None of these require "let's make an unbalanced game!" as an intentional motive, and yet all of them are the product of intentional (if sometimes heedless) actions. Which is why I say it is intentional, but not because the intent was to make an inequitable game.
and yet in this thread right now you have been given example after example including warlocks...I can literally find you a 25 links to threads in this forum alone where the opposite is argued.
Yes. So... you should treat their experience with as much respect
you must have very little respect for your own DMing experience if this is you giving us as muchThat's the reason. The 5MWD, and inexperienced DMs. It's not an inherent feature of the Wizard class.
I would love to know who is spreading such lies!Unless DMs forbid feats, which a huge number do, as I have been repeatedly reminded.
I'll also play!You in? Or do I win by default?
Well, there is this:I've yet to see any statistical evidence from the 'Wizards are God' camp either. In the 8 years of these threads being posted.
It is a major flaw in the system. This ground has been trod over many times.That works great if you roll for stats, but rolling for stats is only fun if you can build your character in 5 minutes when they inevitably died when the d20 forsakes you.
Standard array or point build means you can always hit the prerequisite you desire so it doesn't matter.
Except that’s not quite what I wanted out of this thread.
We were in that actual thread and ECMO3, rather than deny that OP spellcaster existed said, to paraphrase:
“Of course, the Wizard is the most powerful class! He’s the WIZARD! It makes total sense! Hence why WOTC made it the most powerful class. You can totally tell just from the fluff and the mechanics and the Fighter is the worst class. The game is way more fun when there’s a stronger class.”
And I wanted to know who else shared his opinion, who had the same reading of the PHB.
If they're so unpopular, that seems like a major flaw in the system to me...
Now you just need two more. @FitzTheRuke and @Smythe the Bard both played when I ran the Vecna battle simulations, so they might be willing to join.
@Flamestrike is looking for players to play in an "adventuring day", postulating that wizards are not overly powerful (in a nutshell).Not up on this thread, but I'm probably in. What are we doing?
So we'll run through 6-8 encounters with a party of 4-5 with two short rests and see who does the most damage over the course of the day? I wanna play the rogue! I betchya I can win the damage contest, and I'm terrible at optimizing! What level?@Flamestrike is looking for players to play in an "adventuring day", postulating that wizards are not overly powerful (in a nutshell).
If you're interested and check the last five pages or so you can backtrack the original line of discussion.