D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[Flamestrike]

Funny you mention warlock. In every thread I watch as it gets brought up as just as good as a full caster.

I can literally find you a 25 links to threads in this forum alone where the opposite is argued.

 

[Minigiant]

Use a rest variant.

5E is balanced around the 6-8 encounter, 2 short rest AD. If you stray from this baseline, and only ever have single encounter 5 minute work day AD's, and experience balance issues (namely from Long rest classes like the Wizard pwning Short rest classes like the Fighter, Warlock and Monk), that's not a feature of the Wizard class itself, it's down the DM straying from the baseline adventuring day guidelines.

So my point stands. The cause of the phenomena (and I agree it exists at some tables) is down to choices made by the DM and/or the group not sticking to the AD guidelines.

I think the problem is a lot of fans play situations where forcing 6-8 encounters feels clunky. And that what works outside the dungeons might not work within the dungeon. And vice versa.

I mean a heavy trope of DND is tavern brawls and most player expect to the fight to conclude with a night's rest in the tavern or jail.

Because whether or not the DM turns on "Ballroom Blitz" at the Royal Spring Dance, there likely will less than 6 encounters that day. And if you force it it feels weird. And if you ban long rest until they make 6 encounters, that logic alters actual dungeoneeering a lot.

 

[Flamestrike]

Okay then I’m out I was considering saying I would play but that kind of DM heavy handedness isn’t for me.

The game is balanced around a median of 6-8 encounters per long rest, with 2-3 short rests given in that time. IMG you can expect me to adhere to that median as DM. Some days will be longer, some shorter, some with more encounters, some with less, some with more short rests, some with fewer.

I'll do it as subtly as I can with doom clocks and similar, but I also expect my players not to try and game the system with Coffeelocks, Bags-o-Rats, 5MWD abuse or similar.

 

[Umbran]

I've yet to see any statistical evidence from the 'Wizards are God' camp either. In the 8 years of these threads being posted.

Yes. So... you should treat their experience with as much respect as you treat your own then, I think.

Given the insubstantial proof, nobody here should be getting so hot under the collar as to see red text about it.

 

[Flamestrike]

Okay then I’m out I was considering saying I would play but that kind of DM heavy handedness isn’t for me.

And its not 'heavy handedness'. Its logical, builds suspense, makes using abilities matter more, maintains balance, propels the story forward and has a number of other positive effects on play.

A role I see the DM as having a role in maintaining.

Luke Skywalker didnt have all day to get to Alderaan, escape and then blow up the Death Star before it nuked Yavin 4.

Baddies were looking for him, and the Death star was nearly in range.

Every story should have temporal constraints IMO. Nearly all of them I can think of do.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes. So... you should treat their experience with as much respect as you treat your own then, I think.

And I do.

I've acknowledged the phenomena exists (twice now in this very thread), and I've posited a reason for its existence (inexperienced DMs, and DMs not cleaving to the 6-8 encounter/ 2 short rest AD median). These threads exist for a reason, and they keep popping up every day or two for a reason.

That's the reason. The 5MWD, and inexperienced DMs. It's not an inherent feature of the Wizard class.

 

[Undrave]

Debates like this are why I always liked the variable XP tables of older editions as a balancing factor as well as ability score requirements. You have to meet certain criteria to be an Army Ranger, Navy Seal, get a doctorate etc so the classes like Ranger, Paladin etc had more stringent requirements to become one and to advance or even retain the abilities. You no longer met those criteria you were no longer of that rank until you could be reinstated. I disagree with the gender limits etc in 1e but some of that with regard to choosing class kept those classes rare even amongst players and also made high powered wizards mean something even to players for example. DCC has a breakdown of what the characters mean to the world in one chapter that also help drive it home too without variable XP charts.

That works great if you roll for stats, but rolling for stats is only fun if you can build your character in 5 minutes when they inevitably died when the d20 forsakes you.

Standard array or point build means you can always hit the prerequisite you desire so it doesn't matter.

8 years of this same thread popping up 3 times a week in various iterations, and still nobody has been able to post any actual evidence that wizards (or indeed any casters) are actually unbalanced compared to other classes.

Except that’s not quite what I wanted out of this thread.

We were in that actual thread and ECMO3, rather than deny that OP spellcaster existed said, to paraphrase:

“Of course, the Wizard is the most powerful class! He’s the WIZARD! It makes total sense! Hence why WOTC made it the most powerful class. You can totally tell just from the fluff and the mechanics and the Fighter is the worst class. The game is way more fun when there’s a stronger class.”

And I wanted to know who else shared his opinion, who had the same reading of the PHB.

The DMG Guidelines for adventure are very unpopular BUT the only way to balance a full caster the way D&D fans want casters.

If they're so unpopular, that seems like a major flaw in the system to me...

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'd rather they design the game to better reflect how people actually play rather than every encounter day being like a month of sessions to get through.

 

[Flamestrike]

“Of course, the Wizard is the most powerful class! He’s the WIZARD! It makes total sense! Hence why WOTC made it the most powerful class. You can totally tell just from the fluff and the mechanics and the Fighter is the worst class. The game is way more fun when there’s a stronger class.”

And I wanted to know who else shared his opinion, who had the same reading of the PHB.

I dont share his opinion at all. I argue the exact opposite.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'd rather they design the game to better reflect how people actually play rather than every encounter day being like a month of sessions to get through.

Thats an argument I can get behind.

Im not here supporting the 6-8 encounter/ 2-3 short rest AD. Im just here saying it exists, and these problems (Wizards are God) only seem to happen to people who deviate substantially from that baseline.

Of course Schroedingers wizard with 40 spells (that are supposed to last 6-8 encounters) are going to kick butt in a single encounter AD.

Lets see how he goes when he has to deal with 12 encounters, with 5 short rests allowed, before being allowed to Long rest (some lengthy megadungeon, with a 12 hour doom clock attached).

I dare say the Fighter and Warlock and Monk and Rogue will flex in the second day, while the Wizard flexes in the first day.

 

[Minigiant]

I'd rather they design the game to better reflect how people actually play rather than every encounter day being like a month of sessions to get through.

Because like I said...you'd have to nerf full casters or make them run similar to martials and half casters.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because like I said...you'd have to nerf full casters or make them run similar to martials and half casters.

I keep working on (and then forgetting about) a variant game of 5E that does just that.

Bascially turns every spell into a ToB Manouver and ports the actual manouvers from ToB to 5E and then everyone is 'encounter neutral' when it comes to powers.

Mirror image turns into a Stance. Shield is a counter. And so forth.

The only long rest resource left is HP. The rest all comes back at the start of each new encounter just like ToB manouvers.

Makes the game a lot more encounters per day neutral.

 

[HammerMan]

And I do.

That's the reason. The 5MWD, and inexperienced DMs. It's not an inherent feature of the Wizard class.

Man is inexperienced DMs with 20+ years of DMing.

 

[HammerMan]

I dont share his opinion at all. I argue the exact opposite.

Wait you think wizard is the weakest class!?!?!?

 

[Minigiant]

I keep working on (and then forgetting about) a variant game of 5E that does just that.

Bascially turns every spell into a ToB Manouver and ports the actual manouvers from ToB to 5E and then everyone is 'encounter neutral' when it comes to powers.

Mirror image turns into a Stance. Shield is a counter. And so forth.

To me the default shoulda been casters having half the amount of slots and either...

Regain a few slots on short rest.
OR
Have lesser magicks that come back on any rest.

That's how I woulda separated the Wizard and Sorcerer. But that looks like...

 

[Flamestrike]

And @Umbran that was the point I was trying to make.

Many that have this problem of 'Wizards are God' have it because they get 5 minute work days, often by DMs that dont know better, prefer single encounter days, or know how to DM high level play.

Im not one of those DM's.

I've gone to great lengths in the past to DM people on here in PbPs to demonstrate that when cleaving to the 6-8/ 2 short rest AD's, you get a mostly balanced game, with no class outdoing the other. Ive ran 3 of them now, at 7th, 13th and 15th level.

@Mort was in the most recent one.

Im more than happy to give up my time, and (again) show that the imbalance that people are seeing between the classes, is not down to some inherent feature of the Wizard, but down to DM's not cleaving to the median, and with little experience in DMing high level play (and many DMs dont have that experience with most games petering out around 5th level or so, and few games reaching high level).

That's my point. It's not the fault of the Wizard class. The cause of the problem lies elsewhere.

 

[Flamestrike]

Wait you think wizard is the weakest class!?!?!?

No. I think class balance is directly influenced by the number and frequency of encounters and short rests one gets between long rests.

Specifically I argue that looking at classes (any class) in isolation outside this context is leading many into error.

 

[Undrave]

YeaAgain, I run high level games, and I know the shennanigans. Im more than happy to literally run a game with a Wizard and 3-4 other PC's at literally any level and prove the 'Wizards are inherently unbalanced' line to be be a total lie.

Exactly, you have experience, and plenty of it from the look of it.

What about new DMs? Are they well equipped to deal with what you call 'shenanigans'? Well supported? Should the game support 'shenanigans' at all?

I'd bet London to a Brick that those of you with 'Wizards are God' experiences at your tables (and I agree that there are a few of you out there, this thread pops up in one form or another every day or two) have one of the following things messing up your results (or both of them):

1) DM inexperienced with high level play
2) Not cleaving to the 6-8 encounter/ 2 -3 short rest Adventuring day median.

That's the cause of the problem. It's not an inherent feature of the Wizard.

I played a level 5-6 Shepperd Druid and grew bored because of how easy it got after a while... I think it's just a problem with the expected encounter structure and the nature of spell casters in DnD.

Not accidental… it’s incidental.

Any suitably complex system will have potential imbalances. A dozen+ classes, subclasses, races, spells, magic items and feats. Not to mention the imbalance a Dungeon Master provides, different genres, low magic, monty haul, gritty fantasy, high fantasy, Ravnica, Strixhaven, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft. Give me a break. It was never going to be perfectly balanced, there are too many moving parts.

That’s why we have DMs… because it’s not Cluedo or Game of Life. The DM curates the fun, because the rules alone can’t do it.

Perfect balance in quality RPG’s if a myth. Nonetheless, 5e gets as close as I have seen it.

Yeah, balance is more of a goal than a destination you can reach with an RPG. It's kind of a window and 5e tried its best to reduce it. I think it apparently worked quite well for others, but since I'm big into game design I can see the cracks on the edges and just can't ignore them. Mind you I still want to play, but the social and creative aspect do a LOT of the lifting that the mechanics fail to do...

It really doesn't help the feeling of imbalance and playing favorites when WOTC keeps pumping out new spells with every book (most of them going to Wizards...) and it took them until Tasha's to release new maneuvers.

Funny you mention warlock. In every thread I watch as it gets brought up as just as good as a full caster.

I like Warlock, they got neat flavour, a fun mix-and-match subclass system, they get cool passives, a reliable magical damage dealing move they can spam to feel magical, and a few cool blow out they can bring out every once in a while. More classes should be built like the Warlock.

I dont share his opinion at all. I argue the exact opposite.

Then any perceived imbalance would be the result of different playing style and human error clashing with the intended design of the game rather than baked in, meaning you should take the 'accidental' option in the poll.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Im more than happy to give up my time, and (again) show that the imbalance that people are seeing between the classes, is not down to some inherent feature of the Wizard,

It's Spellcasting.

The feature that caused the imbalance is Wizard Spellcasting.

It lets the wizard literally get away with anything while non-casters are not allowed a fraction of that.

This isn't a question or damage or something that can be solved by enforcing onerous rest rules. Martials just plain aren't allowed to do cool things while the wizard gets a literal catalogue of cool things to do.

 

[Undrave]

The cause of the problem lies elsewhere.

I blame the rest structure.