And? The fighter is in the same boat. They can boost their DEX, but then they're ignoring the class abilities that use WIS; the paladin has the same choice.
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Is the Paladin class poorly designed?
- Thread starter Nail
- Start date
FireLance
Legend
My play experience is that the paladin doesn't perform too badly, at least at the lower Heroic tier. I've personally run an elf paladin with relatively balanced stats (Str 14, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 15 at 1st level) to 6th level, and he was certainly able to pull his weight in a fight.
Of course, I did focus on attacks with the weapon keyword that targeted a non-AC defence, such as piercing smite and invigorating smite, so I was able to maintain a pretty good hit chance with those powers since I got to use my weapon proficiency bonus, but only needed to hit a defence that was usually lower than AC. Radiant delirium is also nasty since whether it hits or not, it's pretty much a guaranteed daze for one round.
The paladin's minor Leader abilities and powers such as lay on hands, channel divinity: divine mettle and wrath of the gods also mean that he can do more in a fight than simply dish out damage. If you enjoy playing "helpful" characters, that's another plus point for the paladin.
My only real gripe about the paladin is that the 2nd-level utility powers aren't that impressive. Getting your Wisdom bonus to Fortitude (in the way that some Primal classes get their Constitution bonus to AC in light armor) or finding some way to use Strength with divine challenge (perhaps if your challenged target makes an attack that does not include you, you can shift 3 + Charisma bonus squares and make a melee or ranged basic attack against it as an immediate interrupt) would be nice, but not really necessary, IMO.
Of course, I did focus on attacks with the weapon keyword that targeted a non-AC defence, such as piercing smite and invigorating smite, so I was able to maintain a pretty good hit chance with those powers since I got to use my weapon proficiency bonus, but only needed to hit a defence that was usually lower than AC. Radiant delirium is also nasty since whether it hits or not, it's pretty much a guaranteed daze for one round.
The paladin's minor Leader abilities and powers such as lay on hands, channel divinity: divine mettle and wrath of the gods also mean that he can do more in a fight than simply dish out damage. If you enjoy playing "helpful" characters, that's another plus point for the paladin.
My only real gripe about the paladin is that the 2nd-level utility powers aren't that impressive. Getting your Wisdom bonus to Fortitude (in the way that some Primal classes get their Constitution bonus to AC in light armor) or finding some way to use Strength with divine challenge (perhaps if your challenged target makes an attack that does not include you, you can shift 3 + Charisma bonus squares and make a melee or ranged basic attack against it as an immediate interrupt) would be nice, but not really necessary, IMO.
Nail
First Post
Err.....yeah.
Counting on OAs for damage output in combat is....how shall I put this....very "campaign dependent".
Being a defender (paladin) means being painful to avoid. Unlike a Fighter, a Paladin's defender qualities depend on one ability score. That ability score is only maxed on one of the two proposed builds.
That's lame, IMO.
keterys
First Post
The damage difference between a Str paladin and a Cha paladin might be 3 damage at heroic tier... that's not a very big difference.
And the 3 to attack and damage from OA is just as big a difference.
In general, I don't consider paladins nearly in the same ballpark for defending as fighters. They're a lot better leaders than fighters, though
And the 3 to attack and damage from OA is just as big a difference.
In general, I don't consider paladins nearly in the same ballpark for defending as fighters. They're a lot better leaders than fighters, though
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Ain't that bad. +1 for class, +2 for shield (come on, they pretty much all have one) means they have +3 right from the bat. 13 of dex is pretty common too so you,d get ref 14 at first which is actually decent.
By paragon, pick up lightning reflex if you are that worried. At any rate, every class has a weak save since they can olny boost max two attributes. Considering a Paladin's weak save tend to be +3 thanks over that of most other class, it's pretty good.
Incidently, an adavantage of the STR paladin is that his save are better since he tends to boost STR and WIS rather than CHA and WIS.
Oh, and as a defender. I am more worried about WIll and Fortitude than reflex. Failing those is more likely to you leave you dazed, stunned, dominated or some other nasty effect that gets you out of the fight. Reflex is mostly damage and the paladin is the most resiliant defender (well, that was before the dubious battlerager, anyway).
shadowoflameth
Adventurer
I've been playing a paladin for 6 months (human), but OK you want dragonborn. Here you go.
With a 28pt. buy to start str 14 dex 10 con 16 int 10 wis 10 cha 14
for dragonborn take str to 16 and cha to 16. That gives you (3) strong stats at lest to start. Personally, though it seems counter intuitive, I would go with Con for one of your main bumps and Cha for the other. Use con for your dragon breath and go for all the dragonborn racial feats. For your primary bread and butter melee attack I strongly favor Valiant strike. You will often be outnumbered at all levels and it never goes out of style. try piercing smite, the only encounter level 1 that doesn't need wisdom to work well, and On pain of death for a daily, though Radiant delirium is a good choice too. As you go along, the high con gives you many healing surges, and you need them for powers like lay hands, and you should make the most of them. Consider Blessing of the Raven queen. You will frequently get to use this sometime in an encounter, and it can save the bacon of you or an ally. With it, lay hands, and second wind, you can often heal 3 times in combat without too much trouble. If you keep up your charisma too, your divine challenge damage will stay enough to be at least useful. Remember that combining it with powers like sign of vulnerability that make the foe vulnerable to radiant can be devastating too.
My paladin is a little atypical. multiclass feats to warlock (infernal pact) and favoring intelligence as the second high boosting stat instead of charisma. The high con works well with hellish rebuke, and other powers, and this multi gives him a little help in the ranged area. Paladins are often weak ranged combatants. It also allows him to attack a foe under divine challenge and still keep other party members next to him. Very cruel to challenge someone that can't safely get to you and yet still be able to attack and hamper him. That's life in the big dungeon.
With a 28pt. buy to start str 14 dex 10 con 16 int 10 wis 10 cha 14
for dragonborn take str to 16 and cha to 16. That gives you (3) strong stats at lest to start. Personally, though it seems counter intuitive, I would go with Con for one of your main bumps and Cha for the other. Use con for your dragon breath and go for all the dragonborn racial feats. For your primary bread and butter melee attack I strongly favor Valiant strike. You will often be outnumbered at all levels and it never goes out of style. try piercing smite, the only encounter level 1 that doesn't need wisdom to work well, and On pain of death for a daily, though Radiant delirium is a good choice too. As you go along, the high con gives you many healing surges, and you need them for powers like lay hands, and you should make the most of them. Consider Blessing of the Raven queen. You will frequently get to use this sometime in an encounter, and it can save the bacon of you or an ally. With it, lay hands, and second wind, you can often heal 3 times in combat without too much trouble. If you keep up your charisma too, your divine challenge damage will stay enough to be at least useful. Remember that combining it with powers like sign of vulnerability that make the foe vulnerable to radiant can be devastating too.
My paladin is a little atypical. multiclass feats to warlock (infernal pact) and favoring intelligence as the second high boosting stat instead of charisma. The high con works well with hellish rebuke, and other powers, and this multi gives him a little help in the ranged area. Paladins are often weak ranged combatants. It also allows him to attack a foe under divine challenge and still keep other party members next to him. Very cruel to challenge someone that can't safely get to you and yet still be able to attack and hamper him. That's life in the big dungeon.
No one is counting on OAs for damage output. His point was that losing a few points of damage off of divine challenge is made up for by doing more damage with OAs (not to mention hitting more with OAs). It all depends on the DM, in any case. If a DM never has monsters go against the mark, you'll never see the divine challenge damage anyway. Or if monsters never provoke OAs, same deal there.Err.....yeah.
Counting on OAs for damage output in combat is....how shall I put this....very "campaign dependent".
Being a defender (paladin) means being painful to avoid. Unlike a Fighter, a Paladin's defender qualities depend on one ability score. That ability score is only maxed on one of the two proposed builds.
That's lame, IMO.
Nothing is stopping you from maxing out CHA if that's what you want... It's all about tradeoffs. You don't need to dump all your stat boosts into WIS, especially if you start off with a decent score (14+). Take the dragonborn paladin I posted upthread, boosting STR & CHA at each level. Your DC damage is only 1 behind a pure CHA build and you can actually make use of the CHA-based class powers (which give you ranged attacks, vs Will attacks, etc.). Your secondary effects won't be as powerful, but that's not a big deal, either. Now you know how star-pact warlocks feel...
Frankly, is doing 4 more points of damage 1/round (at most, only if the monster ignores the mark) against epic creatures with hundreds of hit points really going to matter? Doesn't seem like it to me.
Lord Sessadore
Explorer
Also, if you're concerned that Str paladins aren't "defendery" enough at higher levels, just check out Astral Weapon and Champion of Order - those two PP's have some serious defender in them. For pure defender, I'd say I prefer them over any of the Fighter PP's, except maybe Swordmaster.
I've been playing a 'balanced' Dragonborn paladin (STR: 16, CHA 18) built using the standard array for 4 levels now and don't see any problems w/the class. They *are* less defender-y than fighters, really only suited for locking up single, powerful opponents, but they make up for it in increased versatility (healing, buff/debuff, powers that attack weak defenses, an at-will attack that does radiant damage).
Also, their ability to screw up single powerful enemies is exceptional at Paragon tier (via Champion of Order).
Also, their ability to screw up single powerful enemies is exceptional at Paragon tier (via Champion of Order).
Duelpersonality
First Post
Suboptimal though the strength paladin may seem, it works fine in my experience. My wife decided she would really test the system right out of the gate, so our first 4e game she did some screwy stuff. She's playing the most suboptimal paladin ever, I think, and she consistently performs with the rest of the party (ranger [wizard], fighter, warlord and ranger). She has an eladrin strength paladin (wizard) Wizard of the Spiral Tower. Played all the way through heroic and up to level 13 at this point. No, we didn't use standard point buy, but everyone started on equal footing and despite the extreme amount of MAD she still does very well in both defending and damage dealing (although the damage does have a lot to do with a very savvy player controlling the warlord). Paladin defending isn't just about how much damage DC does, but about how it's applied and where the character is positioned. She knows that the fighter can hold down more than one enemy in open spaces, so she gets to the tighter positions and really focuses on locking down one enemy. Surprisingly, her wizard powers are actually very helpful in this regard (particularly thunderwave). I am consistently and pleasantly surprised by some of the more ingenious combo tactics that she, the fighter and the warlord come up with for containing some of my nastier foes.
Granted, this is a very melee lopsided group (only the ranger [wizard] is a ranged character) so the entire group can set up a very good defensive line. Which reminds me: anyone have a good way to get around a bear companion when his khopesh wielding master can high crit an at-will on an OA almost any time you attack the damn thing?
Granted, this is a very melee lopsided group (only the ranger [wizard] is a ranged character) so the entire group can set up a very good defensive line. Which reminds me: anyone have a good way to get around a bear companion when his khopesh wielding master can high crit an at-will on an OA almost any time you attack the damn thing?
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