Is the Paladin class poorly designed?

[Nail]

With a 28pt. buy to start str 14 dex 10 con 16 int 10 wis 10 cha 14

Maybe I missed this, but:

Where are you getting 28 points from for "Method 2: Point Buy"? Is there some errata I missed?

For your primary bread and butter melee attack I strongly favor Valiant strike. You will often be outnumbered at all levels and it never goes out of style.

That is a great Str-Paladin At-Will....I wonder if it makes sense for a low level Cha-paladin as well.

 

[Nail]

...No, we didn't use standard point buy,....

Yeah.

I'm seeing a trend here. Strength Paladins are fine if you let everyone have high stats.

 

[Nail]

Err.....yeah.

Counting on OAs for damage output in combat is....how shall I put this....very "campaign dependent".

Being a defender (paladin) means being painful to avoid. Unlike a Fighter, a Paladin's defender qualities depend on one ability score. That ability score is only maxed on one of the two proposed builds.

That's lame, IMO.

No one is counting on OAs for damage output. His point was that losing a few points of damage off of divine challenge is made up for by doing more damage with OAs (not to mention hitting more with OAs). It all depends on the DM, in any case.

Obviously.

I currently play in three separate gaming groups, with three separate DMs. OA just don't happen. Marks, OTOH, are ignored sometimes...but only if the defenders are built poorly, or are in a poor tactical position that round. (A Str-Paladin would be the afore-mentioned poorly-built defender.)

....and clearly - if this thread is a judge - other games have OAs all the time. <shakes head> Huh! I'm not sure why, but there it is: YMMV. Nothing wrong with that!

But either way: If the Paladin class is only "well-designed" depending on whether or not your DM uses OAs......

You don't need to dump all your stat boosts into WIS, especially if you start off with a decent score (14+).

This is interesting. Are you claiming a Wis of ~14 is all you really need from 1st - 30th? I'd love to hear why you think this is so...do you have more examples? Play experience?

...because if true, then the dragonborn Paladin can afford to pump Str and Chr, and not have to make the choice at all. Str 16, Wis 14, Chr 18, (etc). For the Dragonborn (at least), that would be cool. I'm all for "cool".

 

[Duelpersonality]

Yeah.

I'm seeing a trend here. Strength Paladins are fine if you let everyone have high stats.

True enough, but if a strength paladin is supposed to be such a terrible build, shouldn't it be functionally worse than everyone else in the group with the same amount of stats?

Edit: Especially if she's pumping Str and Int?

 

[Nail]

In general, I don't consider paladins nearly in the same ballpark for defending as fighters. They're a lot better leaders than fighters, though

True!

That's the central reason to play one, in my book. You get to defend and lead (divine challenge and heal/buff), which I like. And as several have mentioned in this thread, a few of the Paladin powers at higher levels are really sweet. My warlord wishes he had easy access to some of these.

 

[Nail]

True enough, but if a strength paladin is supposed to be such a terrible build, shouldn't it be functionally worse than everyone else in the group with the same amount of stats?

Edit: Especially if she's pumping Str and Int?

I guess so! (Int, huh? Why? <puzzled>)

Paladins are great if they have high Str, Cha, and Wis. They don't need much else.

 

[Duelpersonality]

I guess so! (Int, huh? Why? <puzzled>)

I think there is every reason to believe that there are "terrible differences" even if everyone's stats are high. I know that rangers - for example - would love to have three high stats, and would be absolute terrors if they could get them. The rangers in your game don't show this tendency?

Int because she's a paladin multiclassed into wizard (which does make up for some of the very poor design choices in powers for paladins).

One of the rangers in my group is also multiclassed into wizard (and then took blood mage), so she absolutely tanked Str (it's all the way up to 10 at 13th level). Her Dex and Int are very high (being eladrin as well) and her wisdom is decent but nothing special. The other ranger does have some very good Str, Wis and Dex, but he tends to sit behind his bear and use his feat combo of Beast Protector, Deadly Axe and Heavy Blade opportunity to punish enemies that come up and take a swing at his companion.

Which brings me to my next little bit of agreeing with you: that seems to be the only situation that OAs are even a factor in that game. All through heroic the main batch of enemies were hobgoblins and hobgoblin led raiding parties, meaning that I could play them as very disciplined and tactically sound for the most part, not provoking OAs (the lack of a dedicated wizard made this a good challenge for the group up until the final battle at 10th, when both eladrin had wizard dailies to burn on the BBEG and his elite bodyguards).

 

[Spatula]

(A Str-Paladin would be the afore-mentioned poorly-built defender.)

Because his DC deals a few less hp than a CHA-paladin? That doesn't make any sense. We're talking about a difference of around 3 hp per battle.

But either way: If the Paladin class is only "well-designed" depending on whether or not your DM uses OAs......

No one said that.

This is interesting. Are you claiming a Wis of ~14 is all you really need from 1st - 30th? I'd love to hear why you think this is so...do you have more examples? Play experience?

Why wouldn't it be so? You're not making attack rolls with it. It just has a secondary effects on some powers. Look at what you get with your WIS score, compare it to what you get for your CHA, and decide which is more important. Or split the difference and alternate increasing both.

It's no different than a star pact warlock who has two attack stats. Are they pumping up their INT (the warlock secondary stat?). Or are they getting by with what they started with? Or consider all these STR/CON fighter builds - are they improving their WIS, the stat that's directly related to their defender role? No, because they'd rather have the effects of a high CON. Somehow they, and their groups, manage to muddle by.

 

[mlund]

Maybe I missed this, but:

Where are you getting 28 points from for "Method 2: Point Buy"? Is there some errata I missed?

He may have his 3.5 and 4.0 point-buy labels confused, but he also shorted himself a point in that array:

14 = 5 points
14 = 5 points
16 = 9 points
10 = 2 points
10 = 0 points
10 = 0 points

For a total of a 21 point buy under 4th Edition.

- Marty Lund

 

[Herschel]

The best build I can see for a Dragonborn Paladin is Cha-based:

Str 12
Con 13
Dex 9
Int 10
Wis 16
Chr 18

...but hey: I'm open to suggestions!

The thing with the Paladin is the more I look at it there are a couple of ways to go: Super-specialize or general build. In this case, why have strength at all? Dump it to 8 (10) and get another point of Con for Fort, HP, etc. Your basic melee will stink but you're building Leader/Defender vs. Defender/Leader. You could drop a point of Charisma, be back at 18 at 4th level and boost Con or Int, depending on taste. That would definitely help out your defenses, if that's your concern.

In 4e, everything must make sacrifices and have obvious strengths and weaknesses. That's one of the things I like about it.

I also am finding I don't really like strikers much because their defenses are so pathetic. Some people just want damage output and it's a great role for them. I prefer not to spend my time stunned, imobilized, dazed, confused, whatever until the opposing controller runs out of juicy status spells and I finally get to unload.

With the Charisma Paladin, one of the big pluses is that you aren't really a juicy target for defense-based attacks most times and can do your thing and make a big difference in what appears to be subtler ways.