Is the Paladin class poorly designed?

[Nail]

I'm building my first Paladin, and finding it very difficult to balance this class. It has two primary builds - Str and Chr, and one secondary stat: Wis. Yet if you go with the Str build your "defender qualities" (read: Divine Challenge) is really sub-par. *(And if you go with a Chr-paladin, your Fort defence sucks.)

That is: Divine Challenge is only good for one of the 2 builds, yet it forms the basis for being a reasonable Defender role.

Since there's really no way to keep 3 ability scores maxed, that means only the Cha-paladin is viable at higher levels, and the Str-paladin is left in the dust. *(And if you go with a Chr-paladin, your Fort defence is too low.)

...this sucks. I claim "poor design" on WotC's part.

Any thoughts or suggestions? If you started with a Dragonborn paladin (that's not negotiable: don't suggest other races), how would you build it? Assume "point buy".

At least now I know why no one is trumpeting their Pally PCs. They suck.

 

[HeirToPendragon]

pfft, low Fort. I don't know why people worry so much about secondary defenses. I have a level 2 Minotaur Barbarian with 11s in Ref and Will and so far he has done just fine.

Your Paladin isn't the defender that the fighter is because the Fighter is a Defender/Striker while the Paladin is a Defender/Leader.

That's where the differences come about. The Fighter is meant to keep the baddies off the party and dish out decent damage because the baddies can't break through. The Paladin is meant to keep the baddies off the party and keep the party alive if the baddies do manage to break through.

Once you realize that you, like the shielding swordmage, are not really meant to do a lot of damage, building the Paladin is cake.

 

[cjais]

I'm building my first Paladin, and finding it very difficult to balance this class. It has two primary builds - Str and Chr, and one secondary stat: Wis.

There's only one build at the moment, and that's the Charisma-based one. When Divine Power arrives that may change, but for now, you shouldn't even be seriously considering the Strength "build". It is fail.

 

[Nail]

There's only one build at the moment, and that's the Charisma-based one. When Divine Power arrives that may change, but for now, you shouldn't even be seriously considering the Strength "build". It is fail.

Exactly.

Which just flat-out sucks, big time. And it's especially painful for the Dragonborn, as her breath is based on Str/Con/Dex. So as the dragonborn paladin levels up, her breath weapon becomes more and more superfluous. Definitively un-fun.

It's house rule time!

The Divine Challenge feature should be (IMO) based on Wis. (Why wasn't it?) And the Dragon Breath racial power should be based on any one ability score the dragonborn choses.

 

[Nail]

pfft, low Fort. I don't know why people worry so much about secondary defenses. I have a level 2 Minotaur Barbarian with 11s in Ref and Will and so far he has done just fine.

Because your DM is taking it easy on you?

It's already the case that a Paladin's Ref is abysmal. But with low Str and Con, so is your Fort...and you'd think a Paladin would have a good Fort!

The best build I can see for a Dragonborn Paladin is Cha-based:

Str 12
Con 13
Dex 9
Int 10
Wis 16
Chr 18

...but hey: I'm open to suggestions!

 

[keterys]

I agree that the paladin is poorly designed. Personally, I'd suggest making all weapon attacks Str based and changing all Wis references to Charisma.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I agree that the paladin is poorly designed. Personally, I'd suggest making all weapon attacks Str based and changing all Wis references to Charisma.

That's kind of boring, though, because it means Paladin joins every Defender but Swordmage in having Strength as it's most important stat by a vast margin. Given how a lot of Defender-types in various fiction, but especially Knights, aren't necessarily muscle-bound hulks, I think it's nice that Paladins currently have the option to go with Cha, even if it's sub-optimal, because it's a hell of a lot less sub-optimal than going with Cha if it didn't work for any abilities.

I'd agree with dumping Wis, though, that does seem like an unnecessary hold-over from previous editions.

 

[Spatula]

I'm building my first Paladin, and finding it very difficult to balance this class. It has two primary builds - Str and Chr, and one secondary stat: Wis. Yet if you go with the Str build your "defender qualities" (read: Divine Challenge) is really sub-par. *(And if you go with a Chr-paladin, your Fort defence sucks.)

That is: Divine Challenge is only good for one of the 2 builds, yet it forms the basis for being a reasonable Defender role.

Since there's really no way to keep 3 ability scores maxed, that means only the Cha-paladin is viable at higher levels, and the Str-paladin is left in the dust. *(And if you go with a Chr-paladin, your Fort defence is too low.)

...this sucks. I claim "poor design" on WotC's part.

A STR-only build has more problems than Divine Challenge. There are levels were there are simply no STR-based attack powers.

The paladin definitely has some MAD problems, but that's why they get the top class defense bonus (+1 to all), have more healing surges than the fighter, and start with the best armor type. So for one, there's no particular need for CON. That leaves you with wanting STR & CHA as attack stats and WIS as a secondary stat, and in that case they're not really any different than any other two-attack-stat class. Except that you can't really ditch one of the attack stats like the cleric & warlock can, because of the lack of STR-based powers at some levels (alternatively, you could MC with cleric to fix that).

As for Divine Challenge damage sucking without pumping CHA, I don't think the damage is that big a deal. It's automatic if the monster defies the mark, and already scales some with level. It's all gravy, basically.

Dragonborn "avenging" Paladin, 22-pt buy:

STR 18	HP 26	Surge 6
CON 11	Bld 13	Srg/Day 10
DEX 12	AC 18
INT 8	Fort 15	Init +1
WIS 14	Refl 12	Speed 5
CHA 16	Will 14

Feat: Initiate of the Faith

Basic Melee: +6 vs AC; 2d6+4 dmg
Basic Ranged: +6 vs AC; 1d6+4 dmg

Equipment: maul, javelin, plate armor, holy symbol

 

[Jack99]

It's definitely not working optimally as is. Preferably all attack powers should have been based on CHA, with wisdom or strength being the two secondary abilities, depending on build.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Personally, I don't see anything horribly wrong with the class. Their Challenge damage will suffer if you go Str primary, but I think this could be seriously lessened if DC keyed off of Wis instead of Cha. I love that Cha can be your attack stat, so I wouldn't get rid of that, myself.

I've made two Str-based paladins for PbP games, and I'm fairly satisfied with both of them (links to both are in my sig). I agree that you can pretty much dump Con, though you might want a little in it for Draconic Heritage. I've kept a shield for both of them, partly because they're both heavy blade wielders and I don't much like either the greatsword or falchion. I think Spatula's build is very viable - it's pretty much the build I used - though if you want to emphasize your leader aspect I'd switch Cha and Wis (more Lay on Hands).

As for that troublesome level 9 daily slot, I see two solutions there: multiclass (you have tons of options - Cleric, Warlord, Fighter, Ranger, etc...), or wait for Divine Power, where there should be some more Str-based dailies.