Is the Paladin class poorly designed?

[evilbob]

I have maintained for a long while that dual-stat classes are inherently weaker than the others. ALL the previews / additional classes we've seen post-PHB have been single-stat classes: I do not think this is coincidence.

My own suggested fix: all paladin powers (and frankly, all cleric, warlock, and ranger powers, too) work like Eldritch Blast: you can pick one of two stats to base them off of - attack and damage - and then you're great. (This includes Channel Divinity powers and Divine Challenge.) All powers relying on wisdom in some way (like Lay on Hands) still rely on wisdom in the same way. Fixed.

 

[Nail]

Because his DC deals a few less hp than a CHA-paladin? That doesn't make any sense. We're talking about a difference of around 3 hp per battle.

Maybe. (BTW, what ability score arrays are you using? I'm assuming a dragonborn Str-paladin is Str 18 Chr 10. I think you are assuming Str 18, Chr 12.)

The difference is as much psychological as mathmatical. If the paladin's DC damage is 7 radiant hp, that sounds significant. If it's 4...that sounds "take-able" and thus ignorable.

Hmmmm...actually, as I think that through the rest of the way, a low Chr paladin probably will end up doing more DC damage than the high-Chr paladin, not less! Fun.

Why wouldn't it be so? You're not making attack rolls with it. It just has a secondary effects on some powers.

Good point; let's look what you get for your high Wis:

Wis grants:

• Lay On Hands times/day
• 2 At-Wills (1 Cha, 1 Str) secondary effects
• 11 Encounter (Cha-based) secondary effects
• 4 Encounter (Str-based) secondary effects
• No Daily or Utility powers
• One PP features: Hospitaler

Interesting!

 

[Nail]

Besides being a primary attack stat, Charisma offers:

• Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle (an excellent class feature!)
• Divine Challenge radiant damage
• Intimidate and Diplomacy skill exploits
• Wrath of the Gods (Paladin Utility 6) <made of Win>
• Death Ward (Paladin Utility 16) <lame>
• 1 (Str-based) Encounter Power
• some PP stuff, like Hospitaler’s Care (16th level)

 

[Obryn]

My biggest issue with the Paladin is the same as my issue with battle clerics - the need to keep up with both a weapon and an implement.

I mean, the Paladin can grab a Holy Sword at level 30 or so, but other than that, he needs to maintain both a good magic weapon and a good implement if he intends to keep pace.

Now - I think this may have partly been solved by Adventurer's Vault, but you're still very limited. There's the Crusader's Weapon, which has to be a hammer or mace, and.... Um... Moradin's Weapon for his paladins, maybe?

-O

 

[keterys]

Maybe. (BTW, what ability score arrays are you using? I'm assuming a dragonborn Str-paladin is Str 18 Chr 10. I think you are assuming Str 18, Chr 12.)

I'm pretty sure that you'd be better off with putting the 8 in Int (or even Dex) than Cha there.

Hmmmm...actually, as I think that through the rest of the way, a low Chr paladin probably will end up doing more DC damage than the high-Chr paladin, not less! Fun.

And causing more opportunity attacks from them ignoring him... and attacks missing due to the mark penalty

 

[Nail]

Besides being a primary attack stat, Strength offers:

• Channel Divinity: Divine Strength <okay, but not great>
• Better basic melee attacks <for OAs>
• No secondary effects from Encounter, Daily, Utility, or PP powers.

Gees, is that a short list.

 

[Spatula]

Maybe. (BTW, what ability score arrays are you using? I'm assuming a dragonborn Str-paladin is Str 18 Chr 10. I think you are assuming Str 18, Chr 12.)

STR 18, WIS 14, CHA 16
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...aladin-class-poorly-designed.html#post4650818

Good point; let's look what you get for your high Wis:

And it's not just a matter of what's affected, but the impact of the level bumps are going to have on those things. It takes an entire tier to increase your bonus by 1 (and then +0.5 at 11th and 21st levels), so you simply are not going to see a big variance until epic if you start off with a good stat. For some abilities (LoH), that +1 is significant. For others (powers that let you add WIS to damage), it's nice but not hugely important.

 

[Spatula]

ALL the previews / additional classes we've seen post-PHB have been single-stat classes: I do not think this is coincidence.

Yeah I've wondered that myself. I don't know that such classes are weaker, but you do have to make tougher choices during character creation.

 

[shadowoflameth]

Maybe I missed this, but:

Where are you getting 28 points from for "Method 2: Point Buy"? Is there some errata I missed?

That is a great Str-Paladin At-Will....I wonder if it makes sense for a low level Cha-paladin as well.

The point buy system we use is a holdover from 3rd. base stats of 8 with 9-14 for one point each, 15-16 for two points each, 17 and higher for three. You can use the arrays in 4th PHB too, but you get the idea. 28 points on this system is enough for people who want it to have one strong stat if they have at least one weak one. Just a personal preference, but I do not agree that this makes for an overpowered array.

 

[shadowoflameth]

Compare the array I got using the 3e 28pt. buy with the array in the players handbook 4e pg. 18 first table row 9. Mine has (1) 16, (2) 14s, and (3) 10s vs. this reccomendation of an array with (1) 16, (2) 14s, (1) 12, (1) 11, and (1) 8.

in other words:

str 14 dex 10 con 16 int 10 wis 10 cha 14 vs. str 14 dex 11 con 16 int 8 wis 12 cha 14.

The differences are hardly large enough to outway the merits or weaknesses in the class design.