Is the Paladin class poorly designed?

[pawsplay]

I'm really wondering why you couldn't have a high Str Dragonborn, use Str for your breath, then multiclass as a fighter. Doesn't "paladin who is big and muscular and smacks people around" sound like a paladin multi'd with Fighter? Multiclassing is not what it used to be, but it's still a useful tool for shading some characters into concepts not accounted for by the class archetype.

 

[shadowoflameth]

As for Valiant strike. Whichever build you choose, you are still wielding one of the same at will powers at all levels. The only time that list expands is with multi-classing when at 11th level, you can replace one of your at will powers with one from your scond class (PHB PG. 209). Other than that, or waiting for divine power to be published, as a paladin with the charisma build, you might go with enfeebling strike or bolstering strike both of which also go against AC, but even if your cha is 18 and your strength is 10 that is (4) points better to-hit on paper. Remember though with valiant strike, you will always have at least one foe adjacent so +1 at the least and in dire straights with a foe in every adjacent square +8. Granted that isn't likely in play, but in years of playing D&D and other games 2-4 opponents at once happens all the time.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Besides being a primary attack stat, Strength offers:

• Channel Divinity: Divine Strength <okay, but not great>
• Better basic melee attacks <for OAs>
• No secondary effects from Encounter, Daily, Utility, or PP powers.

Gees, is that a short list.

For pallies, str offers a few more things ..

• No need to own an implement ... with the discussions on archery > 2WF for rangers 'cos they don't need 2 weapons, having a single "attack item" that does it all is significant. (note: holy avengers are nice, but silly high level, and has a +4 level bump, so I'd still go with weapon + symbol at epic, 'cos cheaper = earlier higher enhancement)
• Really strong MC options ... there are so many str based powers out there, cherrypicking the very best via MC is admittedly a plus that requires work, but can be worthwhile. An obvious one is Divine Power (Cleric 9) since paladins have no str-based level 9 power.
• In FR at least, I'm betting we all agree righteous rage of tempus is made of broken. Now, any paladin can make use of it, but pallies get a 4[W] attack at 5th. Sure, it's weaksauce compared to hallowed circle, but auto-crit + high crit weapon + 4[W] is a little bit silly at mid-heroic.

I guess point #3 isn't great, so that can get tossed.
I like #1 a lot, 'cos gear micromanagement can equal additional mechanical advantage. I also like valiant strike a lot ('cos hitroll rules) .. especially if you're also abusing #3 (so your hitroll is lower for not using a sword).
Clarify: Deadly Axe + Waraxe proficiency + Righteous Rage of Tempus = BOOM.

 

[shadowoflameth]

He may have his 3.5 and 4.0 point-buy labels confused, but he also shorted himself a point in that array:

14 = 5 points
14 = 5 points
16 = 9 points
10 = 2 points
10 = 0 points
10 = 0 points

For a total of a 21 point buy under 4th Edition.

- Marty Lund

In the 3.5 point buy that I mention.

14 = 6 points
14 = 6 points
16 = 10 points
10 = 2 points
10 = 2 points
10 = 2 points

for a total of 28 with the base being 8 as described in 3.5phb. My group kept using it for sake of simplicity.

 

[shadowoflameth]

For pallies, str offers a few more things ..

• No need to own an implement ... with the discussions on archery > 2WF for rangers 'cos they don't need 2 weapons, having a single "attack item" that does it all is significant. (note: holy avengers are nice, but silly high level, and has a +4 level bump, so I'd still go with weapon + symbol at epic, 'cos cheaper = earlier higher enhancement)
• Really strong MC options ... there are so many str based powers out there, cherrypicking the very best via MC is admittedly a plus that requires work, but can be worthwhile. An obvious one is Divine Power (Cleric 9) since paladins have no str-based level 9 power.
• In FR at least, I'm betting we all agree righteous rage of tempus is made of broken. Now, any paladin can make use of it, but pallies get a 4[W] attack at 5th. Sure, it's weaksauce compared to hallowed circle, but auto-crit + high crit weapon + 4[W] is a little bit silly at mid-heroic.

I guess point #3 isn't great, so that can get tossed.
I like #1 a lot, 'cos gear micromanagement can equal additional mechanical advantage. I also like valiant strike a lot ('cos hitroll rules) .. especially if you're also abusing #3 (so your hitroll is lower for not using a sword).
Clarify: Deadly Axe + Waraxe proficiency + Righteous Rage of Tempus = BOOM.

with point #3. To get the big 'broken' boom, you are spending a standard action to use Martyrs retribution (if you are 5th, your highest daily), a healing surge, a minor for Righteous Rage of Tempus (FRPG). It cost a feat to be able to do this with any weapon, not to mention the waraxe proficiency feat which is valuable anyway, and if the daily misses, the feat power is lost along with your channel divinity for that encounter. For all that, it should be a big boom.

 

[Nail]

For pallies, str offers a few more things ..

• No need to own an implement ...

I like #1 a lot, 'cos gear micromanagement can equal additional mechanical advantage.

Absolutely! If there's one thing that 3.xe taught us, it's that "gear management" can be the difference between a weak PC and a mighty PC.

Tangent: It interesting to see how this plays out in 4e. For example, you may find magic items far above your level, and yet you may only make items of you level.....which end up being the same enhancement bonus as those higher level found items.

 

[Nail]

And it's not just a matter of what's affected, but the impact of the level bumps are going to have on those things. It takes an entire tier to increase your bonus by 1 (and then +0.5 at 11th and 21st levels), so you simply are not going to see a big variance until epic if you start off with a good stat. For some abilities (LoH), that +1 is significant. For others (powers that let you add WIS to damage), it's nice but not hugely important.

Good points, all.

In the games I play (bi-weekly meetings, 4 hours at a time), it's just highly unlikely my PCs will ever get out of Heroic Tier. Given that, stat bumps matter only a little bit; +2 in two stats by 8th.

Keeping that in mind, and looking over the things Wis and Cha affects in the Paladin class, I still see precious little reason to take a (dragonborn) Str-Paladin. It's just too wimpy.

It'll be Str 14, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 16, Chr 18 for me.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I think the paladin is poorly designed, although I don't think it's anyone's fault, it's just that it seemed like a good idea at the time. But I think that as they developed new classes, they realized that it's better to have a single attack stat for the class's powers.

My fix is to make to make the paladin more in-line with the new classes. So I make all paladin powers Cha primary and Str and Wis secondary. Str-secondary paladins have a bit of striker in them, and Wis-secondary paladins have a bit of leader in them.

I also think the cleric, warlock, and ranger need to be redesigned as well. They all share the same design problem IMO.

 

[Herschel]

Good points, all.
It'll be Str 14, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 16, Chr 18 for me.

Which is a fine build. Sure, you don't need to be Dragonborn at this point, but it's what you said you wanted and looks like a nice way to go about it.

 

[Nail]

@ Jonathan Moyer: Agreed, but.....they won't be changed. Divine Power will come out, which I'm confident will have new Paladin builds and new Paladin powers...but they won't be able to change the structural problems with the Paladin.

Of course, 4.5e could change the Paladin. Is it too early to talk about 4.5e? It's only 2 years away......