D&D 5E Is the sleep spell d&d 5e too powerful

[kyuss]

Yet my example still stands. A player (wizard level 1) can wipe out a group of players level 1 with high probability! All the while using the rules...

So what? The game isn't a PvP game and wasn't designed or balanced with PvP in mind.

 

[Jasondd]

So what? The game isn't a PvP game and wasn't designed or balanced with PvP in mind.

I love the game, I think that the sleep spell was not properly designed. Add a saving throw and it is still powerful but more fair and balanced with other spells.

 

[Jasondd]

Or he casts it, rolls low and gets absolutely no one. Sleep is good but (as to each target) it's all or nothing.

If we're talking surprise taking out the rest of the party - the mage is better off waiting until everyone goes to sleep and doing it then (sure, I'll take 1st watch).

Of course if he rolls low but the odds (the average) are in his favor. Again all I'm saying is that the power of the sleep spell was over looked. I just think that a saving throw might be a good solution.

 

[darjr]

I dunno. I ran a game where the wizard tried those shenanigans. It didn’t work out well for him. There are probabilities then there are actual dice hitting the table and the fighter killing the wizard with his bare hands dressed in his big bird pajamas.

 

[Jasondd]

I get it, you want it to be super powerful because you've "discovered something", so nothing others say is going to sway you otherwise.

It just isn't any more powerful than a greatsword though when someone is asleep. Sorry.

I think you missed the point entirely, being powerful is beside the point. I just think that the sleep spell was designed poorly. It is off balanced compared to other 1st level spells. If you add a saving throw, it still is powerful but more balanced out. Take "command" for example, level 1 (one person, one round and a saving throw) and does the same affect as sleep if.that is the command.

 

[Jasondd]

I dunno. I ran a game where the wizard tried those shenanigans. It didn’t work out well for him. There are probabilities then there are actual dice hitting the table and the fighter killing the wizard with his bare hands dressed in his big bird pajamas.

I hear you but for a spell level 1, it's quite powerful. I decided to add a saving throw and find that it balances out. At least gives a fighting chance. There is no game which the rules are perfect, I just think sleep was overlooked...

 

[Jasondd]

Yep. A rogue with a rapier could probably do it, as well.

Good example but others could wake up and sleep species that you must "slap" him awake. Someone must wake you up. So again have to give it to the mage with sleep.

 

[Jasondd]

I think you will find that most people in this thread, including myself, strongly disagree that Sleep is an overpowered spell that needs fixing. If you still disagree, fine, change it in your game however you like, but I don't think you're going to get suggestions here.

Ok, Maybe discuss it with an open mind to other players and see what they think. I added a saving throw which still makes sleep powerful but more balanced compared to other spells.

 

[Jasondd]

I take it you're not familiar with earlier incarnations of the spell?

TSR era, it could put to sleep 2-8, even 4-16 creatures, no save.
3.5, it gave a save, but saves were easy to optimize.
4e, it slowed, then put you to sleep on a failed save, though you saved every round to wake up - still the nastiest condition imposed by such a low-level spell, and recognized as arguably the most potent 1st-level daily in the game.
...
5e, it's based on hps but back to no save.

Sleep, like Fireball, by tradition, is a particularly good spell, yes.

I know about second edition, even more powerful (hit dice) and I believe that a saving throw balances it

 

[Mort]

I love the game, I think that the sleep spell was not properly designed. Add a saving throw and it is still powerful but more fair and balanced with other spells.

Are you going to remove (or increase) the 5d8 HP affected? If not, this spell goes from quite strong at low level to very weak.

At low level the Save DC will likely be 13, possibly 14 and at absolute best 15. So assuming the opponent is even affected, he then gets a save too.

As many have stated, the sleep spell is a legacy spell. It's always been strong for its level (initially) and then dropped off. Even with that, I've just never seen it be overwhelmingly powerful in play - and that's with having a bard who uses it about as effectively as I've seen.