D&D 3E/3.5 Is the spiked chain too good? (3.5)

[Tatsukun]

Thoughts

It seems very broken to me, much more so at high levels. At levels of about 10+ the actual weapon damage becomes much less important.

A fighter of that level with a great sword is doing, let’s say, 2D6 (greatsword) +1d6(flaming), +2(weapon), +6(str), +2(weapon spec) for a total of an average of 20.5 damage. With a spiked chain it’s 18.5. At higher levels, that –2 damage is inconsequential.

The spiked chain guy has lost another feat (one of his many fighter feats) and gets to threaten twice as many squares (16 instead of 8) on flat ground, with 3D battle (common at these levels) it’s much worse (124 vs. 26 squares).

This means he gets AtOp’s against anything without reach, (more attacks) and he gets bonuses to disarm (ok, not that exciting).

Now, here’s the thing. Imagine there was a feat that would let you use your greatsword at 10’ or at 5’ and gave you a bonus to disarm, at the cost of 2 Damage. Would you take it? Wouldn’t everyone?

If you look at the (real) weapon itself, it’s not that heavy. There is no justification for the 2D4 in my mind. Also, it takes a lot of ‘warm up’ time before you can attack with it. If you have ever seen a guy using this weapon, you have to loop it around your foot, then swing it back around your waist, then whatever to get it to fly off in the direction you want.

Thus, my game solution, it’s 1D6 and it you can’t attack with it more than once in a round (not including AtOp’s). This means, basically, no full attacks.

This keeps is about on par at lower levels (where that –2 damage is still a big thing) and tames it at higher levels.

That’s just how I do it. You may disagree.

-Tatsu

 

[Scion]

Hopefully you also dont make it cost a feat, along with giving it a lot of extra bonuses that you havent listed here. The weapon is already borderline enough as is, destroying any use it may have just isnt cool. Might as well take it out rather than make it useless.

Aoo's? Sure, but the greatsword is way better at crits, and those crits are way more powerful. At higher levels the amount of aoo's drops dramatically (monsters with reach, spellcasting, ranged combatants from too far away, tumble, terrain, and a few hundred other things)

Or he could just use the polearm, not spend a feat, and be just about as good anyway in very nearly all circumstances.

Most of the benefits you name will just never come into play. You can reach a lot of squares in a 3d space? cool. I have been playing this game for nearly 20 years and I have never seen a single situation where that would matter to a degree great enough to worry about it. Not once. If it happens more often in your games then maybe it'll be an issue. But then if every creature in the game has a weakness to lightning then lightning bolt will probably seem too good as well.

 

[Grog]

People focus too heavily on the tripping aspect of the spiked chain when they try to explain why it isn't overpowered.

Even a spiked chain with just EWP: Chain is nasty. Combine it with combat reflexes and fact that your average damage is 2.5 points lower disapeears in light of the added AoOs you get and the fewer attacks you take from reach creatures because you don't have to close.

But you get those benefits with a guisarme as well, and you don't have to spend a feat on it, and it has a better crit multiplier. And, if you don't care about tripping, you can go with a glaive instead, and get more damage on top of all the other stuff.

I just don't see the problem.

 

[Beard in the Sky]

The thing that balances this IMO is that they are very uncommon weapons, which means to keep up with Damage Reduction or to have special abilities or whatnot, the PC has to PAY for it all. You are not going to find +2 Spiked Chains lying around so the character has to pour his money into that weapon rather than armor, potions, or whatever. This was what people failed to grasp about the Mecurial weapons as well. I had a fighter take a Mercurial Greatsword as soon as he could afford to buy one (2nd Level I think), took weapon focus and specialization in it as time progressed. At about 8th or 9th level, he essentially had to abandon it because he had put so much money into it that he couldn't afford other gear. It all works out.

 

[Scion]

At about 8th or 9th level, he essentially had to abandon it because he had put so much money into it that he couldn't afford other gear. It all works out.

It works out that the player had an idea and the dm forced him to abandon it by not letting him have the monetary value of gear that the game assumes he should have? I am confused.

+2 weapon (what characters of this level should probably have) costs 8k gp. 8th level character should have around 27k in gear.

If he wasnt able to 'afford' a +2 weapon for some reason then it must've been a really low magic world or something

It doesnt matter how rare or common the spiked chains are in the campaign, they are a good choice for people with a certain goal. Otherwise though they are pretty suboptimal. Lots of reasons for this have already been said, no reason to punish players for making a choice that is not broken.

 

[Benben]

Argo,

Availability doesn't matter in core rules. Liberal application of some skill points into Craft and one feat, and we have as many magical spiked chains as funds and xp allow.

 

[Beard in the Sky]

Argo,

and we have as many magical spiked chains as funds ... allow.

Which was exactly my point... funds that can do other things when you use a longsword and keep finding new ones for free. I didn't say it couldn't be done, just that it costs money.

 

[Beard in the Sky]

Final analysis: the spiked chain is easily abusable by a smart player and kind of silly, but it takes a lot of resources to use to its full effect and if the DM and players have a good relationship shouldn't break the game.

Yep.

 

[Scion]

Which was exactly my point... funds that can do other things when you use a longsword and keep finding new ones for free. I didn't say it couldn't be done, just that it costs money.

Completely irrelevant. Just trade in all of those magical longswords you keep getting for someone to enhance your spiked chain or greatsword or whip or whatever else it is that the character wants. While at the same time picking up other needed items.

So the character will still get what he needs, and will still have the proper gear value. The rarity is completely irrelevant as well. It has no bearing on 'balance' issues in most cases in the game. Nor is there a reason that the character should be denied useing whatever weapon from the core they want to work with.

Are there any overpowered combos people can come up with? Trip is powerful no matter what it is used with (possibly too powerful) so that doesnt really count for much. Is there something that makes up for being feats in the hole and being behind in damage as well?

 

[Beard in the Sky]

Completely irrelevant. Just trade in all of those magical longswords you keep getting for someone to enhance your spiked chain or greatsword or whip or whatever else it is that the character wants. While at the same time picking up other needed items.

Again, if a DM allows people to "trade in" these things, then I would have to ask "where?" If there are ready made magic shops with magic weapons in the town next to the dungeon, then yes, there is a problem... but then again, I would argue that this is not the intention of the game. You may be able to sell one or two weapons (at half their value, as per the rules) to a merchant, but who is he selling it to? My only real argument is that a DM -can- make it costly to maintain a weapon such as a spiked chain. As I said, I ran a campain strictly by the book and the player chose to discontinue his use of the weapon not because he -couldn't- afford it but because he was tired of how it limited his other choices due to the resources he spent on that weapon. Perhaps it is still a bit too powerful, but I think most DMs who are having major problems with it could do -some- things to change that.