D&D 5E Is the Tarrasque tough enough?

[KarinsDad]

[MENTION=7175]jadrax[/MENTION] post about Mearls using rock rules from giants is probably a bunch simpler to use and makes sense.

While I would not see a cat using throwing as an attack, I have seen cats catch a rodent with their claws and fling it up into the air in one motion. Not sure that really adds anything to the conversation, but it sure was fascinating to watch the first time.

I've also seen cats get their paws into something that they shouldn't, get scared or injured, and whatever it is goes flying. But, I don't count that as throwing something at a target and I also really don't count it as taking a foe, throwing it into the air, and having it take falling damage. For one thing, there are few cats large enough to be able to throw small and medium PCs up into the air.

But I do think that for a large enough giant, grabbing a PC in one hand with one action, and throwing him straight up into the air with another action, is perfectly reasonable. Now the DM just has to figure out how high up into the air a giant can throw a medium PC (who typically weighs in at about 250 or so pounds with armor and gear). A huge 25 Str giant can lift weight of 30x25x2 = 1500 pounds with two hands, so presumably 750 pounds with one hand. So, how far can such a giant throw a 250 pound (with weight and gear) medium sized PC? Probably 5 or 10 feet above the giant's height and reach. So for 20 foot tall giant with a reach of 15 (assuming a huge giant can be that tall, I do not have the MM in front of me), he could only throw a medium PC about 40 or 45 feet or so into the air, maybe 60 feet away from the giant (similar to how a man who can lift 200 pounds with 2 hands could probably only throw a 33 pound object 10 feet into the air and 15 or 20 feet away with one hand). Rough rule of thumb. Alternatively, take the average rock weight (I assume rock weights are in the MM) times the max distance a giant can throw it and divide by the total weight of the PC. That will probably come up with a smaller number, but it could be used.

 

[Evenglare]

I don't think the Tarrasque is supposed to be the big end all monster everyone thinks it's supposed to be. Sure it's a CR 30 and has legendary actions but I'd assume it would have monsters with it to help it out. Also it doesn't have lair or regional actions which leads me to believe its just simply supposed to be a big creature not something epic like a dragon or lich. Also this precludes previous editions, I don't care how they were then, this is now and I just don't think it's supposed to be as menacing as you guys think it's supposed to be. It's a big dumb creature, that's all, in my opinion anyway.

 

[Mistwell]

I think the whole tarrasque fracas that keeps coming up is a good example of a disconnect between the designers and some DMs on encounter building in 5e. I don't think the monster stat block is supposed to encapsulate everything about your combat encounter like it often did in 4e; the DM is expected to create a suitable context for everything. If you catch a tarrasque meandering through the wilderness, maybe flying overhead and dropping vials of acid on it for six hours would kill it; but in a real campaign there is probably a more complex task at hand, like a city to be protected.

And it can probably pick up stuff from the ground and toss it, given it's size, much like a giant. As a DM I'd rule a huge boulder as an improvised weapon, and give it the same range as a giant's rock (60'/240'). The rock is listed as a weapon in the Giant's description, so the improvised weapon functions like the weapon it is similar to per the PHB. That's 4d12+10 damage each (largest rock weapon is 4d12+str).

 

[Derren]

The reason that I keep coming up with counters to some of the strategies that people have come up with is to find things that would really work.

Here is your mistake. A lot of those people do not "come up" with things, they give the Tarrasque random extra abilities like ranged attacks because they want it to be more powerful than it is.
And even for the few plans left, the Tarrasque has Int 3. It won't come up with much and especially not very fast.

 

[Tormyr]

I've also seen cats get their paws into something that they shouldn't, get scared or injured, and whatever it is goes flying. But, I don't count that as throwing something at a target and I also really don't count it as taking a foe, throwing it into the air, and having it take falling damage. For one thing, there are few cats large enough to be able to throw small and medium PCs up into the air.

But I do think that for a large enough giant, grabbing a PC in one hand with one action, and throwing him straight up into the air with another action, is perfectly reasonable. Now the DM just has to figure out how high up into the air a giant can throw a medium PC (who typically weighs in at about 250 or so pounds with armor and gear). A huge 25 Str giant can lift weight of 30x25x2 = 1500 pounds with two hands, so presumably 750 pounds with one hand. So, how far can such a giant throw a 250 pound (with weight and gear) medium sized PC? Probably 5 or 10 feet above the giant's height and reach. So for 20 foot tall giant with a reach of 15 (assuming a huge giant can be that tall, I do not have the MM in front of me), he could only throw a medium PC about 40 or 45 feet or so into the air, maybe 60 feet away from the giant (similar to how a man who can lift 200 pounds with 2 hands could probably only throw a 33 pound object 10 feet into the air and 15 or 20 feet away with one hand). Rough rule of thumb. Alternatively, take the average rock weight (I assume rock weights are in the MM) times the max distance a giant can throw it and divide by the total weight of the PC. That will probably come up with a smaller number, but it could be used.

You double the lifting capacity for each size step above medium. The huge 25 strength giant can lift 25x30x2x2=3000 or 1500 with one hand. The Tarrasque can probably only use one hand for a throw, so maybe 30x30x2x2x2= 7200. Divided that by 2 for 1 handed is 3600.

So at 1500lbs. lifting one handed, how far would you think the giant could throw Grunt the Fighter? I ask because I have not wrapped my brain around that part of the problem yet.

Changing the max range of the giants rock attack by the difference in lifting capacity might make the most sense for the Tarrasque's rock attack. A little more than twice the range would make sense to me.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Here is your mistake. A lot of those people do not "come up" with things, they give the Tarrasque random extra abilities like ranged attacks because they want it to be more powerful than it is.
And even for the few plans left, the Tarrasque has Int 3. It won't come up with much and especially not very fast.

They've given an Elephant an intelligence 3, and it has been known to throw things at people. This game as a whole has been designed to allow for things that the creators didn't think of. Do you really need every single tiny detail to be spelled out in order to run the game?
Besides, throwing a rock is within the boundaries of the rules under "improvised weapons" and it has been stated by Mike Mearls that the weapon in question would be the same as a giant's.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

The 5e tarrasque looks like weak sauce to me. No regeneration, no rush, no sharpness effect on the bite, gimped magic weapon resistance, lame frighten effect that ends after a minute, and no wish requirement for final defeat. Also, the numbers don't look that astounding for a Challenge 30 beastie.

I'd never use this monster "as is". I'd have to spice it up a lot to make it suitable for its role as a scary powerhouse.

More likely, I'd just unleash a hundreds of tarrasques and let the party figure out how to handle them. At level 20 there's no point holding back on the sh*t your pants moments.

 

[Tormyr]

The 5e tarrasque looks like weak sauce to me. No regeneration, no rush, no sharpness effect on the bite, gimped magic weapon resistance, lame frighten effect that ends after a minute, and no wish requirement for final defeat. Also, the numbers don't look that astounding for a Challenge 30 beastie.

I'd never use this monster "as is". I'd have to spice it up a lot to make it suitable for its role as a scary powerhouse.

More likely, I'd just unleash a hundreds of tarrasques and let the party figure out how to handle them. At level 20 there's no point holding back on the sh*t your pants moments.

There is a lot less in this version of the Tarrasque, but PCs are generally packing less heat too. Has anyone actually had a party kill a Tarrasque yet either in campaign or playtesting? The only examples I have seen show level 20 characters doing decent damage at the start but tailing off as 1 by 1 they fall.

 

[Mistwell]

Here is your mistake. A lot of those people do not "come up" with things, they give the Tarrasque random extra abilities like ranged attacks because they want it to be more powerful than it is.
And even for the few plans left, the Tarrasque has Int 3. It won't come up with much and especially not very fast.

No, I don't want it to be more powerful than it is, I want to play 5e the way the game suggests it can be played - which is by using things like improvised weapons, and other general combat and movement rules. It's a real rule, it works as I described it, and there is nothing wrong with a monster using that rule. In addition, your suggestion that an intelligence of 3 is too low to throw a random object, I find to be faulty. Intelligence of 3 is not too low for that sort of behavior, and the monster manual has plenty of creatures with similar attacks and intelligence that low or even lower.

Here, I will walk you through it. Improvised weapons, PHB Pg. 147 "An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin. In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club."

Now, from the MM, starting around Pg. 152, under Giants, "Their weapons are uprooted trees and rocks pulled from the earth" and then a rock is listed as their ranged weapon attack.

Uprooted trees and rocks pulled from the earth is exactly the sort of stuff a Tarrasque can easily toss around. Indeed, directly in it's abilities it's listed as a siege monster that deals double damage to objects, and it's described as rising from beneath the earth to wreck destruction on everything in it's path. There is nothing at all outside the rules to say it uses a boulder as an improvised weapon, which is similar to the actual Giant weapon of a rock, and therefore can be treated as such a rock.

Furthermore your idea of dropping alchemist fire doesn't work. It can only be thrown up to 20 feet, and a Tarrasque can easily ready an action to jump when you come in range, and attack using a legendary action, and now you're swallowed and dead.

 

[Kai Wren]

I agree, the lack of a ranged weapon in the statblock is an oversight which leaves the monster open to accusations of being a pushover in 'white room' scenarios.

If I were running the monster, I would add a ranged attack. It would probably represent the monster sweeping around with its tail in order to throw small hills, villages, mountains, and other PCs at the flying PCs.

Alternatively, I would allow it to jump. And I would certainly say that the stomach acid of a Tarrasque counts as magical, so any clay golems or similar creatures are likely to be swallowed and cease being an issue. But that's how I'd approach it.

It is a CR30 monster. It needs plot devices to kill unless you yourself are operating at that level... and even level 20 PCs ain't. Although a Cleric calling on divine intervention might be able to scare it off.