D&D 5E Is Warlock broken?

[The Crimson Binome]

I certainly wouldn't allow Concentration through a rest. OT - I've never had a player argue this guff and
have never expelled a player from a 5e group, but if talk like this came up repeatedly I'd be very
tempted. There seems to be a really strong rules-lawyerly 3e-style vibe to 5e discussion here on
ENW (worse since the WotC boards closed?) which I have not seen at all IRL. IRL all the 3e-fan rules lawyers I know are still playing Pathfinder. I'm really really glad that this is the case, I would not want to GM 5e if my player base was like this.

You can rules-lawyer in 3E because it's written that way, but 5E is very definitively not, so even attempting to do so means that person has already failed.

In this case, though, there's nothing lawyer-y about it. It's just a simple logic chain. There's no reason, anywhere, to think that you shouldn't be able to concentrate through a short rest. And even if it did say something somewhere, one way or the other, then the DM should feel free to change that if necessary to maintain the tone at their own table.

If you do change something like that, though, then you need to warn the player before they commit to playing a Warlock, because it's going to have a big impact on how they play, and there's no way they could possibly see it coming unless you tell them.

 

[Flamestrike]

Wow. Just wow.

I certainly wouldn't allow Concentration through a rest.

You're doing it wrong.

Also, I find this odd considering your point one post up complaining Warlocks are weak. Hex (with its 8 hour duration - and a 24 hour duration at 5th) is meant to be concentrated on throughout a short rest.

Remember, the game assumes a 6-8 encounter 2ish short rest adventuring day. They hand the short rest class a core spell that lasts 8/24 hours, fail to mention anywhere that short rests break concentration (no RAW contradicts it) the games designer spells out in three seperate tweets that short rests do NOT break concentration (RAI is clear) and it's impossible to argue a RAF interpretation here for mine as well (unless you consider it fun to strip a spell slot off the Warlock.. as a punishment for him short resting to regain spell slots).

You have enough dramas keeping concentration 'up' as a warlock as it is (competing concentration slot choices, taking damage, getting KO'ed etc). Imposing some kind of houserule that 'you can't possibly concentrate while sitting down quietly and putting your feet up for lunch for an hour, but you can definaely concentrate while nervously prowling the undead riddled catacombs of doom and terror for 5 hours, and you might even be able to retain it if you get knifed in the belly' is a bridge too far.

I mean, as soon as the Wizard sits down to grab a drink of water, and eat a sandwich, his polymorphed buddy turns back into human form? He can get hit in the head with a warhammer and retain concentration (with a con save), how come a quiet snack and a breather throws it out automatically?

Tl;dr - You can concentrate during a short rest. RAW doesnt contradict it anywhere (there is a definative list of what breaks it), it's clearly intended via RAI, and the devs have said as much (in no fewer than three seperate tweets).

 

[S'mon]

I may well be wrong about the intent re Hex & Concentration - it seems weird but I'll deal with it if it comes up.

 

[CapnZapp]

I've played one for a number of levels, and was left unsatisfied.

Well, "SailorNash not satisfied" <> "class broken".

A Warlock is a "magical fighter" with the occasional ace up his sleeve. If you expect a "full caster" in the vein of a Wizard or Cleric, prepare for disappointment.

Eldritch Blast is not your "fall back option". It's your main weapon, much like a sword is a main weapon for a fighter.

Like the fighter, you should expect to "cut" or "swipe" or "stab" with your Eldritch Blast over and over again. Unlike the fighter, you have a limited arsenal of spell slots. But these are of maximum potency, so use them well.

With only two spell slots, one was always needed for Hex and the other saved for an emergency. Concentration was almost always tied up with Hex, taking away many of your options.

So don't cast Hex so often...?

your tight number of spells are already highly restrictive.

And thanks for that, or the Warlock would truly have been broken in the overpowered sense.

The short rest mechanic has already been discussed as problematic. It's seldom to see 6-8 encounters in a day. With 1-2 significant events, the "5 minute workday" classes have a huge edge.

I almost never manage to have 6 encounters in my days, let alone 8.

But you know what? We have three fighters, a warlock and a cleric. And it's always the cleric clamoring for more long rests.

If it was as easy to make 6-8 encounters happen as some of WotC's useful apologists on these forums claim, the Cleric and the other long rest classes would have felt woefully underpowered.

So I can't really agree the Warlock is underpowered. It's much more likely you spend his slots too liberally. You can't cast Hex all the time and complain you have too few slots. Choose one or the other, not both.

Sure, if your Warlock is the lone "shortrester" in a group of longresters, then you'd have a case.

But that case wouldn't be specific to the Warlock. Then you'd be talking about the general subject of "don't be the one sticking out in a group". Simply put, the group dynamics work best when there are two longresters and two shortresters in each party. Nobody will then be without an ally in the rest discussions.

but without spells you're left with nothing but Eldritch Blast

That's your problem right there.

Don't play a Warlock unless you actually LIKE making lots of attacks with Eldritch Blast. An attack that's well on par with lots of fightery attacks, I might add. No issues with resistance to non-magical weapons. The push back effect can be a win button if used correctly. Force damage is always nice.

It seems that the only "correct" way to play a Warlock is to play something else instead.

Know what, I actually think you are right.

Since you don't seem to appreciate the Warlock for what it is, or possibly want it to be what it isn't, yes, you should play something else.

No fix is needed because everything is working as intended. Happily, the MC rules seem to give you options that you can work with!

Has anyone else tried playing a straight Warlock 20?

My player is at level 8.

If I remember, I'll revisit this thread at the end of Out of the Abyss. His Warlock won't be level 20, but hopefully level 14-16 or so.

 

[CapnZapp]

Eldritch Blast is the only saving grace of the class. That's why its constantly spammed. And its supposed to be optional.

Well, that is a real problem. The PHB really gives off the impression EB is optional. And that's not the only place the designers made that mistake; making things optional like it would be a good idea not to take these options.

Eldritch Blast should be a core class feature. Or rather, it can stay a Cantrip - but don't give Warlocks the choice of NOT taking it. Instead phrase the Cantrip section of Pact Magic thusly:

You know Eldritch Blast and one cantrip of your choice from the Warlock spell list.​

The invocation adding Charisma to damage should be a core class feature. Don't make it an Invocation that can get lost in a sea of other choices.

This design mistake (thinking that more options = more good) is repeated for other classes too.

Rangers should have Hunter's Mark as a core class feature. Nothing wrong with having the spell (since Bards and others can then take it), but Rangers need to get a version of it that doesn't consume spell slots (since it makes a player sad to have to spend slots just to bring core damage up to speed that you'd otherwise use on roleplaying or exploration) and doesn't have concentration (since that hoses the idea of a melee ranger) and doesn't cost bonus actions (since that hoses two-weapon rangers and nothing but two-weapon rangers).

 

[CapnZapp]

I think its rather telling that virtually all the responces here are, "Oh, no! There's no problem with Eldritch Blast!"

The OPs problem is that he's not looking at the Warlock as a ranged fighter only with blasts instead of arrows.

And you could not have known this, but I have just posted a reply where I do agree there's a problem with Eldritch Blast.

Or, well, not EB per se, but the unfortunate fact the PHB gives off the impression it's just one out of many choices and that it can be a good idea not to take EB as a Warlock.

 

[CapnZapp]

The one problem I've found with the warlock is he very susceptible to dispel magic or counterspell. One of those two spells eliminates far more casting power than it does for other classes. Fortunately, they do have the strongest cantrip. You're pretty much forced to take and use eldritch blast constantly. It is the foundation of the class.

I would argue counterspelling a Fireball eliminates exactly as much casting power regardless of who's casting it...

 

[CapnZapp]

Two spells per short rest was a very significant limitation

I should add (minor spoilers) that Out of the Abyss rewards what amounts to a third level slot as magic loot.

In my group, naturally the Warlock dropped everything and clawed, begged and talked her way to getting that item (a Spell Gem).

At the time (5th level) that single item represented a +50% increase in her spell power, which obviously is a bit OP. But now that she's reached level four slots (and soon level five slots) that item will start to feel more okay.

It's still a hugely useful thing for a Warlock to have, since the biggest problem isn't "not enough high level spells" (after all, you get more than anyone else).

The problem is that in order to cast a low-level spell, you need to sacrifice a high-level slot.


Zapp

PS. I shudder at the thought of using the DMG spell point variant for PHB Warlocks...

(At level 5, you would get 10 power points per short rest. Compare a Wizard's 27 points per long rest. (I'd take 10 power points over 2 spell slots any day...!))

 

[CapnZapp]

Not addressing you in particular, but just grabbing the quote since it's concise. It sounds like the major problem that everyone has with Warlocks has to do with multiclassing (and maybe feats).

Well, my take from the thread so far is that "everyone" aren't really having major problems with Warlocks.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'd say the warlock has really powerful exploration options between the invisible, extrasensory, infinite range telepathy familiars of the chain lock

This really needs to be said more than once.

So I'll say it again!

I'd say the warlock has really powerful exploration options between the invisible, extrasensory, infinite range telepathy familiars of the chain lock.

This scout is really making life difficult for my monsters that naively expects the party to bumble into their lairs...

With such a scout, all the challenges a party of surface-huggers lost in the Underdark are basically solved. That's a huge benefit right there, easily buying the Warlock her place in the party all by itself.