Is Wisdom the real dump stat?
- Thread starter Buttercup
- Start date
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
Wis usually ends up as my dump stat...unless of course I'm playing a Cleric or Druid. I've never really put Cha as mine. Enjoy it far too much.
die_kluge said:
It is a long road to becoming a 20th level PC. A higher than average Wisdom will probably let your character live long enough to get there.
Of course, once you are a 20th level barbarian I agree with you that the +2 probably does not make much of a difference.
NTZ
My players have learned (some times the hard way) that a very low wisdom is a bad thing. Nearly every encounter with somthing magical requires a will save or a wisdom check (either to resists a spell or make use of a magical item). I also make liberal use of bluffing rogues, so a good sense motive is the difference between taking 1d8+4d6 points of damage and 1d8 points of damage.
Tessarael
Adventurer
I like to analyze this in terms of what +2 to an ability buys in terms of equivalents feats to get the same advantage. I will avoid discussion of abilities giving a bonus to skills until later.
+2 STR: gives +1 to hit in melee (better than Weapon Focus) and +1 damage (+1.5 damage with a two-handed weapon) (at least half as good as Weapon Specialization, probably better than that), and improved carrying capacity.
So +2 STR is worth about 2 feats.
+2 DEX: gives +1 to hit with a missile weapon (better than Weapon Focus), +1 initiative (worth 0.25 feats vs. Improved Initiative), +1 Reflex save (worth 0.50 feats vs. Lightning Reflexes), and +1 AC (better than Dodge).
So +2 DEX is worth about 2.75 feats - as the last two abilities are defensive, it should probably be slightly less, e.g. see Sean Reynolds' feat point system:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html
So with that approach I would rate it at 2.4 feats. It's also worth noting that DEX doesn't necessarily improve AC that much, as heavier armors can compensate: e.g. Full Plate with DEX 12 gives +9 AC, whereas Chain Shirt with DEX 18 gives +8 AC (and max DEX bonus with a Chain Shirt is +4). So that brings DEX back more to the range of 1.4 to 1.75 feats for those who wear armor.
+2 CON: gives +1 HP/level (equivalent to Improved Toughness) and +1 Fortitude save (worth 0.5 feats vs. Great Fortitude).
So I would rate +2 CON as +1.5 feats. More than that if you don't allow the Improved Toughness feat and are in a high level campaign as it gives more HP (e.g. +20 HP is 6.7 picks of Toughness).
+2 INT: gives (level+3) skill points (this is worth (level+3)/5 feats in comparison to the Open Minded feat). For an INT-based spellcaster, it also gives bonus spells and +1 spell save DC (better than Spell Focus).
So I would rate +2 INT as between 0.8 feats (at 1st level for a non-INT caster), 2.8 feats (at 1st level for an INT caster), 4.6 feats (at 20th level for a non-INT caster), and about 6.6 feats for an INT-based caster at 20th. [Obviously, you should go for INT for skill points at 1st level, rather than later, as it gives more benefit if you have it from the start.]
+2 WIS: gives +1 Will save (worth 0.5 feats vs. Iron Will). For a WIS-based spellcaster, it also gives bonus spells and +1 spell save DC (better than Spell Focus).
So I would rate +2 WIS at between 0.5 feats for a non-WIS caster and 2.5 feats for a WIS caster.
+2 CHA: For a CHA-based spellcaster, it gives bonus spells and +1 spell save DC (better than Spell Focus).
So I would rate +2 CHA at between 0 feats for a non-CHA caster and 2 feats for a CHA caster.
I have omitted class features that depend on abilities. e.g. Paladins and Clerics get more bang for buck out of CHA due to Turn Undead, Lay On Hands, etc.
If you want to figure out the benefit after factoring in abilities affecting skills, just divide the number of skill dependent on that ability by 5 (comparing to Open Minded feat). e.g. If a Rogue has 5 DEX skills that he wants to improve, +2 DEX gives +1 to each, which is worth about a feat.
You should also keep in mind how easy it is to replicate a bonus with magic items. e.g. +10 to a skill is 10,000gp, +6 to an ability is 36,000gp ... so those are other benchmarks you could apply when estimating the value of skill points.
From the above analysis, I rate +2 to an ability in the following order:
At 1st level: CHA < WIS < INT < CON < STR < DEX, with no armor.
At 1st level: CHA < WIS < INT < CON < DEX < STR, with armor.
At 20th level: CHA < WIS < CON < STR < DEX < INT, with no armor. CHA < WIS < CON < DEX < STR < INT, with armor. Though this assumes that you want lots of skill points.
+2 STR: gives +1 to hit in melee (better than Weapon Focus) and +1 damage (+1.5 damage with a two-handed weapon) (at least half as good as Weapon Specialization, probably better than that), and improved carrying capacity.
So +2 STR is worth about 2 feats.
+2 DEX: gives +1 to hit with a missile weapon (better than Weapon Focus), +1 initiative (worth 0.25 feats vs. Improved Initiative), +1 Reflex save (worth 0.50 feats vs. Lightning Reflexes), and +1 AC (better than Dodge).
So +2 DEX is worth about 2.75 feats - as the last two abilities are defensive, it should probably be slightly less, e.g. see Sean Reynolds' feat point system:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html
So with that approach I would rate it at 2.4 feats. It's also worth noting that DEX doesn't necessarily improve AC that much, as heavier armors can compensate: e.g. Full Plate with DEX 12 gives +9 AC, whereas Chain Shirt with DEX 18 gives +8 AC (and max DEX bonus with a Chain Shirt is +4). So that brings DEX back more to the range of 1.4 to 1.75 feats for those who wear armor.
+2 CON: gives +1 HP/level (equivalent to Improved Toughness) and +1 Fortitude save (worth 0.5 feats vs. Great Fortitude).
So I would rate +2 CON as +1.5 feats. More than that if you don't allow the Improved Toughness feat and are in a high level campaign as it gives more HP (e.g. +20 HP is 6.7 picks of Toughness).
+2 INT: gives (level+3) skill points (this is worth (level+3)/5 feats in comparison to the Open Minded feat). For an INT-based spellcaster, it also gives bonus spells and +1 spell save DC (better than Spell Focus).
So I would rate +2 INT as between 0.8 feats (at 1st level for a non-INT caster), 2.8 feats (at 1st level for an INT caster), 4.6 feats (at 20th level for a non-INT caster), and about 6.6 feats for an INT-based caster at 20th. [Obviously, you should go for INT for skill points at 1st level, rather than later, as it gives more benefit if you have it from the start.]
+2 WIS: gives +1 Will save (worth 0.5 feats vs. Iron Will). For a WIS-based spellcaster, it also gives bonus spells and +1 spell save DC (better than Spell Focus).
So I would rate +2 WIS at between 0.5 feats for a non-WIS caster and 2.5 feats for a WIS caster.
+2 CHA: For a CHA-based spellcaster, it gives bonus spells and +1 spell save DC (better than Spell Focus).
So I would rate +2 CHA at between 0 feats for a non-CHA caster and 2 feats for a CHA caster.
I have omitted class features that depend on abilities. e.g. Paladins and Clerics get more bang for buck out of CHA due to Turn Undead, Lay On Hands, etc.
If you want to figure out the benefit after factoring in abilities affecting skills, just divide the number of skill dependent on that ability by 5 (comparing to Open Minded feat). e.g. If a Rogue has 5 DEX skills that he wants to improve, +2 DEX gives +1 to each, which is worth about a feat.
You should also keep in mind how easy it is to replicate a bonus with magic items. e.g. +10 to a skill is 10,000gp, +6 to an ability is 36,000gp ... so those are other benchmarks you could apply when estimating the value of skill points.
From the above analysis, I rate +2 to an ability in the following order:
At 1st level: CHA < WIS < INT < CON < STR < DEX, with no armor.
At 1st level: CHA < WIS < INT < CON < DEX < STR, with armor.
At 20th level: CHA < WIS < CON < STR < DEX < INT, with no armor. CHA < WIS < CON < DEX < STR < INT, with armor. Though this assumes that you want lots of skill points.
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Crothian
First Post
I never use wisdom as a dump stat. The skills most used by any character are spot and listen. And while will saves might not be the most common, if you miss one it tends to really suck as its not damage you are probably taking but getting held or charmed or other situation that makes you useless.
Tessarael
Adventurer
With skills like Listen and Spot, you need at least one character in the party who has good scores. Beyond that, you don't need everyone to be good at it - except when running separate watches, then you might want each watch to be reasonably competent. There's spells like Alarm that can help out in that situation too of course. i.e. WIS can be a dump stat for most of the characters, providing one or two characters (e.g. the Cleric and maybe the Rogue) aren't too bad.
Jolly Giant
First Post
Buttercup said:
It's also good for paladins and blackguards, I believe.
For ftr/brb tank characters, though, the math is really pretty simple: CHA grants bonus to certain skills. WIS grants bonus to certain skills AND improves Will saves.
That's purely math, of course. Then there's the player's roleplaying tastes to consider! But while those vary from player to player, the math's consistent...
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