Is Wisdom the real dump stat?

[Acid_crash]

The one thing that kind of bugs me about this game is that Cha is usually described as a person's force of will, and Wis as the person's common sense. So, why does Wis get the Will bonus and not Cha?

A house rule I want to try is to make Charisma the Will bonus and add the Wisdom bonus to initiative in addition to Dexterity, or even strip it from Dexterity completely. Wisdom gets all the perception related skills, so why not also include initiative (which is how fast a person reacts in combat when it starts) into the equation as well.

Now, Charisma is more important as it provides Will modifier, Wisdom is more important because it adds something to combat (either in addition to, or replacing, Dexterity for initiative) and now a person has to really think, at least a little bit harder, on which stat to give that low score to.

 

[Desdichado]

Those "few skill" include Spot and Listen, though, which are pretty crucial for at least someone in the party. I almost always play average to high wisdom characters. Charisma is still my dump stat more often than not, I'm afraid, unless the character concept specifically calls for a high charisma.

If you're actually concerned about it, you can always incorporate the Sanity mechanic from Cthulhu/UA. A little disincentive away from low wisdom there...

 

[maddman75]

The one thing that kind of bugs me about this game is that Cha is usually described as a person's force of will, and Wis as the person's common sense. So, why does Wis get the Will bonus and not Cha?

A house rule I want to try is to make Charisma the Will bonus and add the Wisdom bonus to initiative in addition to Dexterity, or even strip it from Dexterity completely. Wisdom gets all the perception related skills, so why not also include initiative (which is how fast a person reacts in combat when it starts) into the equation as well.

Now, Charisma is more important as it provides Will modifier, Wisdom is more important because it adds something to combat (either in addition to, or replacing, Dexterity for initiative) and now a person has to really think, at least a little bit harder, on which stat to give that low score to.

The real solution is to have four saves rather than three. Fort and Ref are both used for phsyical attacks. Fort saves run off Constitution, as they are made to resist the attack, while Ref goes off Dexterity because that avoids the attack. Similarly, Will should go off Cha and be made to resist a mental attack, while a new save is used to figure something out or notice something odd. This new save could be called Reason or something, and run off Wisdom. Will saves would be used to resist charms and compulsions, while Reason saves would allow you to overcome illusions and other tricks.

I wouldn't go the C&C route with six saves, because I don't see the point of a Str and Int saves. These attributes are more active rather than passive.

 

[Tessarael]

Quote Acid_crash, "And add the Wisdom bonus to initiative in addition to Dexterity, or even strip it from Dexterity completely."

Rogues with Sneak Attack need good initiative to catch opponents flat-footed. Dexterity is rightly the prime attribute of a Rogue for this reason - don't take it away from them.

I see no reason that Wisdom should add to initiative. However, if you do make this change, be sure to reduce the power of Clerics - Clerics are already the best class, this just makes improving Wisdom even better for them.

I think there are better ways to balance the abilities against each other. Unfortunately, you are always going to have some gap between physical and mental characteristics - those classes which rely on one can use the others as dump stats with limited penalty. One solution is to reduce the impact that abilities have (e.g. +1 per 4 points), though I think the current system is fine personally. Another solution is to break up the abilities into smaller portions:

1. Muscle (+1 damage and increased carrying capacity)
2. Precision (+1 melee attack - get rid of Weapon Finesse)
3. Perception (+1 missile attack)
4. Agility (+1 AC, +1 initiative, +1 Reflex save)
5. Constitution (+1 HP/level and +1 Fortitude save)
6. Will (bonus spells, +1 Will save)
7. Knowledge (+1 spell save DC, max spell level, +4 skill points)
8. Charm (+1 Fortitude/Reflex/Will save)

Skills depending on each ability would be:

Muscle - Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Swim

Precision - Balance, Craft, Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Use Rope

Perception - Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival

Agility - Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Perform (Dance, instruments), Ride, Sleight of Hand

Will - Concentration, Profession, Use Magic Device, Turning checks for Clerics and Paladins

Knowledge - Appraise, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge skills, Spellcraft

Charm - Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Perform (Act, Comedy, Oratory)

The advantage with this approach is that reducing an ability has a clear penalty associated with it and the abilities are better balanced vs. each other. Will and Knowledge are dump stats for those who don't cast spells and don't need skill points. A melee oriented character may use Perception as a dump stat. A missile oriented character may use Precision as a dump stat. Agility will be a dump stat for those who use heavy armor. Charm is a fairly poor choice of dump stat, as it affects all your saves.

Just an idea I've been throwing around ...

 

[Epametheus]

Using Wisdom as a dump stat generally isn't a good idea mechanically, but it can definitely be amusing.

 

[Beale Knight]

So if you aren't a divine caster (and there aren't any in my new campaign) why would you care about wisdom? Is having a decent will save and a bonus to a few skills really worth a high ability score?

Without having read the pages of replies, I have to say YES! My hunter style rogue (Wilderness variant from UA) was blessed with an 18 and 17 during stat rolls. The 18 went to Dex (no surprise), and the 17 went right into Wisdom, and that was the stat I bumped up at Level 4. Maxing out the Spot and Listen skills, combined with the Wisdom bonus, has made Ren a character that rarely gets surprised, which has made the difference more than once.

Now 6th level, Ren's Spot and Listen bonuses are +13. His Strength, Con, and Char are 10 or 11 each, so he has no business going into melee (and the couple of times he has he's always gotten the crap beaten out of him) and isn't all that spectacular with people, but he does what he does very well.

 

[Beale Knight]

Already mentioned, Will save. Eventually I'm going to have to get my char Iron Will. For all his moxy and ability, my char is a sucker for any kind of Hold spell or whatnot. In addition, this char has at some point in every single game session flubbed a Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, or Survival check. Gets annoying.

And all of that is why yours and mine make such good company. Mine notices the fight coming and yours ends the fight.

 

[shilsen]

The one thing that kind of bugs me about this game is that Cha is usually described as a person's force of will, and Wis as the person's common sense. So, why does Wis get the Will bonus and not Cha?

That's a common misconception. Actually Wisdom is described explicitly as including "willpower" and Charisma is described as including "force of personality". So Wis makes perfect sense for the Will bonus.

 

[devoblue]

No matter what the character concept I am trying build, I like to always try to find room for at least a 12 in Dex and Wis, and try to dump one of the other stats. I can make a character concept that I am happy with by dumping in any other stat, but Dex and Wis just don't work for me.

 

[Felix]

Strength is my usual dump stat. Str lets you melee better, but there are so many more interesting options out there than meleeing.

Wisdom fuels the all-important Will save, and that is something you dont want to have a low number in.