D&D 5E Is WotC over-thinking the Ranger?

Looking at the ranger there is one thing I found strange.

The hunters mark spell seems specificly made for the hunter subclass, I think it Might been better as a subclass feature that uses spell slots like the paladins smite.
Then they could have put in another option that uses concentration and spell slots in the beastmaster subclass to bost the use of the animal companion.
 

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onbarnett

First Post
The best use of the animal companion is to scout ahead and set up surprise rounds against your enemies and allowing your party to pre buff. Nothing underpowered about that.
 

I just tack on Wis to damage v favored enemies; also gain expertise and improved crit v favored enemies at higher levels.

Beasts get the wis and improved crit v favored enemy buffs too.

Capstone is Wis to hit vs favored enemies.

Done.
 

EditorBFG

Explorer
The best use of the animal companion is to scout ahead and set up surprise rounds against your enemies and allowing your party to pre buff. Nothing underpowered about that.
well, nothing underpowered except for the fact that any arcane type with find familiar can do the same without giving up all the awesome features of an archetype like the Hunter in exchange.
 

EditorBFG

Explorer
I just tack on Wis to damage v favored enemies; also gain expertise and improved crit v favored enemies at higher levels.

Beasts get the wis and improved crit v favored enemy buffs too.

Capstone is Wis to hit vs favored enemies.

Done.
I don't know if it fixed the Beastmaster, but your solution certainly sweeten up the problematic favored enemy feature. I definitely agree that the best solution is probably really simple.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
well, nothing underpowered except for the fact that any arcane type with find familiar can do the same without giving up all the awesome features of an archetype like the Hunter in exchange.

Except the arcane type would then be giving up all the other Ranger features (d10 hit die, extra attacks, fighting style, favors terrain/enemy, etc), and still doesn't have a pet that can attack in combat and doesn't scale HP, and Prof Bonus with levels.
And by 5th level, beast sense gives the Ranger unlimited distance to look through his companions senses, where the Wizard is limited to 100 feet. Finally, because the familiar is magical in nature, it will attract more attention from powerful monsters (like dragons) who could recognize it for what is, where the ranger's beast may go un noticed.
Surprise rounds are huge in 5e, and a Beastmaster Ranger should give a party a significant advantage in getting those, a major power boost for the party.
 

Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
The beastmaster is a totally different issue, and I think Wizards is going in a doomed direction with the concept. A spirit beast that manifests to fight once per day couldn't be further from what my players want as a beastmaster. I believe anybody who wants to play a beastmaster wants to have a true animal companion. If it makes the ranger a little overpowered, so be it, because by now we know that a beastmaster that is just a little underpowered is not making the cut.

If I were Mike Mearls, I'd just bring my team together and say: "You're professional game designers, give me a balanced ranger+animal companion build. If you can't, at least give me one that people are willing to play." :)

I suspect people who pick Beastmaster are most likely trying to recreate their Hunter from years of playing WoW. And the class... probably should respect that - because that's a very enjoyable playstyle for a lot of people (I was never really one of them, but it probably accounts for half of all WoW subs).

WoW, Guild Wars 2, and a number of other MMOs have all created versions of this playstyle. There is no reason it cannot be done right in a table top RPG...

Some basic 'theorycraft' not yet thought through:
- Allow Rangers to amp up the kind of animal they can train as they level. And the pet they have gains in power as they level.
- Allow them to give the animal a fighting style - offensive, defensive, or agile. The animal would then get a few tweaks to its combat based on the choice.
- Allow for MMO style 'commands' - command your "pet" into guardian, 'passive', or 'guard that' modes. In guardian mode it protects you, an attacks anything you attack. In passive mode your pet is away from the keyboard getting soda for this fight..., in 'guard that' mode you pet moves to guard someone or something an attacks anything that attacks that thing or tries to 'handle / take/ break / mess with' it.

- The pet, after that, is either DM played or the player can control it within those commands if the player is the sort who can be trusted to not give it a magical ability to come up with new commands on its own... :)
- Changing the command style would be an action.

- these are just the basics seen in any MMO pet class. All of it lacking numbers so it could be balanced to a table top game with relative ease.

2) Accept that a combat pet is inherently unbalanced, and that a balanced pet will be unfun. That is, design the animal companions for those who are willing to give the beastmaster more than her share of the spotlight; and tell those who don't that they don't have to allow the subclass.
2a) The animal companion absolutely must pass the fireball test: any level-appropriate area attack should not cripple the pet; or it becomes a liability, not an asset.
2b) The animal companion absolutely must pass the WTF test: being given the same freedom to act as any other NPC, summoned creature or familiar.
2c) The animal companion absolutely must pass the emotional attachement test: the class needs the tools required for the AC to stay alive as long as its Master stands. Class design must NOT expect the AC to be discarded and replaced.

10 years of playing MMOs in the time I've been away from table top gaming informs me that no, its not inherently unbalancing as a concept. You just need to actually design for its being present when that class is around.

Of course some of the MMO gimmicks used to make it pass those 3 tests you have there might raise some eyebrows with table-toppers. Specifically moves like the WoW patch that caused pets to only take 10% of damage from any area attack. And the ressurect-in-combat ability pet classes in both WoW and Guild Wars 2 have with regards to their pets. But other solutions can be found for the same problems.

2) benefits that is incompatible to D&D as a group activity. Example: "when traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace". Anything that turns the game into a one-man show is bad. Solo mini-scenarios such as "you'll stay behind while I scout out the mind flayer camp to find the princess" have no place at my tables.

Yep. Anyone who has ever played any of the various Cyberpunk-genre RPGs that were around before the wider public got internet access, ie, before the mid 90s... knows this all too well. Everytime the character that was the 'decker / hacker / whatever we're calling a person with a web-browser and dial-up this time' turned on his Commodore-64-equiv-PC and went 'Tron-Mode' all the other players could basically go out for pizza. Not call delivery, but just take off and come back in a few hours... because the game was now on hold (especially in the games that made typing on a keyboard into a 300-baud modem 10x faster than reality for... reasons... so your hacker could play out an entire campaign before the other players got to lift a single plastic caltrop and throw it at you for letting that guy play that character, again...).
 
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EditorBFG

Explorer
Except the arcane type would then be giving up all the other Ranger features (d10 hit die, extra attacks, fighting style, favors terrain/enemy, etc), and still doesn't have a pet that can attack in combat and doesn't scale HP, and Prof Bonus with levels.
And by 5th level, beast sense gives the Ranger unlimited distance to look through his companions senses, where the Wizard is limited to 100 feet. Finally, because the familiar is magical in nature, it will attract more attention from powerful monsters (like dragons) who could recognize it for what is, where the ranger's beast may go un noticed.
Surprise rounds are huge in 5e, and a Beastmaster Ranger should give a party a significant advantage in getting those, a major power boost for the party.
I have not seen it work that way in play to any notable advantage. Maybe it is a DM dependent thing to a greater degree than other class features. Which still makes it bad design. Which WotC has admitted, and the majority of survey respondents clearly agree. Gamers are experts on their own gaming experiences, so by that barometer the Beastmaster just sucks.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Looking at the ranger there is one thing I found strange.

The hunters mark spell seems specificly made for the hunter subclass, I think it Might been better as a subclass feature that uses spell slots like the paladins smite.
Hunter's Mark is a significant combat boost to all Rangers. It is so good it completely overshadows all other choices.

On the other hand, if you regularly get hit, you can't keep it up. Melee Rangers is in this position.

So the end result is heavily skewing the entire Ranger class towards ranged builds, since any "melee Ranger" is better off simply taking Fighter levels and the Survival skill.

So I agree having Hunter's Mark as a class feature (either in the manner you suggest, or simply a restricted but otherwise free feature like Barbarian's Rage) would be a great solution.
 


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