Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Coredump]

I've asked several times what function a monk serves and the most general answer has been

For the most part (IME) the rogue is the second best... at a lot of things.

I play a rogue, when I go scouting, I often take the monk with me. He isn't as good, but pretty close, and I get back up that won't blow my cover.

When fighting, the fighters are better; but the monk sure can come close to keeping up with them.

When the will save from the (insert whatever monster) has to be made, a few of the characters make it. The monk is almost always one of those.

That firetrap is a drag, except that the monk with good save/evasion ignored it.

No one likes getting plugged by an archer, except the monk can deflect them, and move fast enough to close the distance.

The bad guy was making a break for the door. Luckily the monk was able to catch him. (grappled him to the floor)

As a thief I can tumble to the bad guy, but now I am alone. Oh wait, the monk can tumble with me... and now there are two of us, and I can also SA.

The monk likes to grapple/pin, and then I can SA. It is a great team up.

Watch out for that pit trap, oh never mind, you have slow fall.

Plus, set up situations where slow fall is useful, when trying to trap someone, or get away from someone. Roof tops are cool.

Stunning fist, DC 18... pretty useful. (even the hill giant has a 25% chance of blowing the save)

Then looking a little into the future.... you get to heal yourself. You get to automatically make certain reflex saves, and may still take no damage. Not to mention poisen immunity, dimension door, and spell resistence.



I think the monk shines on its own. It just sounds like what you *want* to play is a front line tank. That is cool, and pretty fun. But that is not the role of a monk.

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[EPRock]

Because you obviously do not like your character you are playing, nothing that can be said here will be able to help you like your monk more.

My friend is playing a Monk and is now level 11. He gets 5 attacks a round dealing 1d10+4 damage, he is not capable of dealing the max possible damage like the barbarian, but he deals damage in his own way.

He is also able to get out of there if things turn sick because he has fast movement. He now can automatically tumble around opponents to get the flank attack.

 

[Scion]

Because I am a math geek, and trying to avoid real work....

Hey, I always like to help

Assuming that the druid has spent 2 of the three feats for aug summ, and assuming the bard is doing nothing but singing to help with the attack. Then the chance gets believable. There are too many variables to make it worthwhile, but based on limited calculations, I would estimate 15-20%. If you want to factor in the chance for a successful wolf hit/trip, it gets to 5-10%

Remember, the bard can sing and do other things, so singing isnt exactly a huge drawback

With all of those bonuses thrown in it isnt terribly surprising for the guys to do a whole lot of damage, especially while flanking as well (not sure if you used that one). At that point the attacks are something like +7 base +2 feat +4 prone +2 flank +1 bard = +16. That is just about an auto hit for each of those, and since they do some pretty hefty damage (d4+7, d4+7, d4+3, d4+3, avg 30) definately gets right up there. Along with I am not sure if that damage was 'all three of the animals attacking and this is the total damage'. If so then having 3 other guys fighting with you then the single man out is bound to do less damage

Anyway though, just rambling, always fun to crunch numbers right?

 

[mikebr99]

She told me that given the fact that she does only intend to run one fight a session, generally, that it is fair to plan for the magicians rather than just looking at raw CR because if we're doing one fight a day, basically, it does mean that the spellcasters have zero reason not to shoot their whole wad every fight.

Note to DM:
You might want to consider reducing the experience given to spellcasters (or any class expending all their finite powers) if you only intend to use one encounter per day. Again, see DMG. P49.

YMMV


Mike

 

[Will]

This thread is terrible.



I SOOO want to play a monk, now, dammit.

 

[evilbob]

Furthermore, we are going to go through the monk class and cut out what we consider to be the chaff to, while keeping at game balance, give the monk more direct melee ability because, clearly, I want it.

Another idea would for your DM to relax multiclass restrictions and let you take some levels in fighter. Or better yet, find a good +10 BAB PrC and take that. There's a neat grappling PrC in Complete Warrior, and at least one or two good PrCs for monks in the BoED.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Another idea would for your DM to relax multiclass restrictions and let you take some levels in fighter. Or better yet, find a good +10 BAB PrC and take that. There's a neat grappling PrC in Complete Warrior, and at least one or two good PrCs for monks in the BoED.

Or, speaking of Complete Warrior, look at the Tattooed Monk. Very fun Monk PrC.

I guess I've just never understood the 'Monk's are crap!' arguments that float around. I've been DMing a game with a Monk, Pyschic Warrior, OA Samurai, Sorcerer, and a Cleric for a long while now, and out of all of the PCs, the Monk always sticks out and ends up being the one who makes the biggest difference in the game.

 

[mikebr99]

Or, speaking of Complete Warrior, look at the Tattooed Monk. Very fun Monk PrC.

I guess I've just never understood the 'Monk's are crap!' arguments that float around. I've been DMing a game with a Monk, Pyschic Warrior, OA Samurai, Sorcerer, and a Cleric for a long while now, and out of all of the PCs, the Monk always sticks out and ends up being the one who makes the biggest difference in the game.

whoa... then the Cleric isn't being played very well.


Mike

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

whoa... then the Cleric isn't being played very well.


Mike

Heheh. Its a Halfling Cleric. And truthfully, ISN'T played all that well. She's more a party buffer than anything else.

Actually, I've also run a game with a Monk, Druid, Sorcerer(completely focussed on Summoning), Paladin, and Rogue. The Monk didn't really outshine everyone, but the Sorcerer's summoned creatures were almost everywhere. They didn't take anything away from the other players, and actually helped them out to cause distractions and such. Those poor creatures just got pounded far too easily.

 

[jgsugden]

Let's talk about this druid for a moment.

Assuming a 6th level nonhuman druid with a wisdom above 15 and less than 20, he has 4 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells and 3 3rd level spells. He also has 3 feats.

He used up 2 of his 3 feats in augment summoning. So, summoning is his main focus. You should keep that in mind.

He cast 2 3rd level spells and 2 2nd level spells (or perhaps just 3 3rd level spells) to summon those monsters. That is a very significant portion of his resources. In other words, he focused his efforts to reach his maximum effectiveness for a short spurt.

Let's flip around the events a bit and see what else could have occured in the battle. The following would be more likely in a game I run ...

Giant appears on the horizen and combat begins. PCs charge to the rescue as the giant lumbers towards the seemingly helpless village.

The druid goes first and begins to cast a summoning spell when the giant is close enough that the sumoned animal will egt to the giant and make a few attacks.

The animal companion begins to charge forward to the attack. It leaps in ... and takes an AoO from the giant's club. Combat began when the PCs began to move towards the giant ... it is not flat-footed. It is very ready for combat. The giant hits the animal companion (4 or 5 HD - 24 to 30 hps?) for 2d8+10 damage. The druid gives instructions and the animal retreats, out of combat until the druid can heal it. The other option: dead animal companion.

The giants notes spellcasting, uses its wisdom of 10 and decides 'nasty spellcasters need rocks' ... drops its club and throws a rock at the druid. That is a +8 attack that does 2d6+7 damage. It has a nice long range, more than long enough to be useful against a druid casting spells with a close range. If the rock hits, the druid must make a concentration check with a DC in the mid to high 20s to finish his summon spell. Druids are not known for great ACs, especially when they use all their spells on summoning.

Meanwhile, you rush up and slap the giant, attempting a failed stun. It tries to take an AoO, but your tumble foils the attempt. Go you!

The druid, a touch wounded (14 points down of 40? hit points total) decides to try a summon again. It begins to cast another summoning spell trusting its AC and the monk at the giant's feet to keep the giant from hurling another rock.

The giant adjusts back and hurls another rock. Smack. The druid is now down about 28 of his 40 hit points. The spell is again disrupted. The druid has wasted 2 of his most powerful spells and has nothing to show for it except 2 nasty bruises and a hurt wolf.

You, hero that you are, continue your assault. You're not doing an incredible amount of damage, but you're doing more than the druid. The druid spends this round healingitself and the animal companion with its remaining 3rd level spell - cure moderate wounds for 2d8+6 damage - about 15 each (gotta love share spell).

The giant can finally turn on you, but has only two slams at +15 (d4+7) to use because it had to drop its club to throw the rocks. You take a hit or two, but you're still winning the fight.

The druid begins to cast a badger ... the giant hits the druid with a rock. The druid then retreats to use 1st level healing spells for a few rounds.

And so on ...

In this 'reality' , the druid is next to useless and you are the only one doing anything against this tough foe. The druid might be on these boards asking for how it can be effective when the DM keeps disrupting his summoning spells.

The monk is a fine PC class. I've seen it played very effectively. You just need to keep your eyes out for ways to be effective ... and hope the DM doesn't tend towards tactics that minimize your usefulness.