Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Scion]

I wouldn't say the fighter is among the strongest classes, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it (in 3.0 or 3e) other than being somewhat lacking in inherent flavor. Many campaigns don't cater to the class' strengths (versatility in combat, for one) but that's not a problem with the class. YMMV and obviously does.

The fighter just doesnt get enough feats to be as versitile as he needs to be. All of the other combat classes get a bunch of class abilities that go towards some goal. Take the ranger, he can choose either twf or ranged. After that he has a bunch of other abilities also. He can be both good at melee and ranged, while still having all sorts of things to fall back on. The fighter? If he has a 'huge' feat selection from a wide variety of sources and min/max's like crazy to get the absolute best I still havent seen one that really makes up for his devestating inability to do anything outside of combat, and, at the same time, was still pretty much the same as any other combat class anyway.

anyway though, not the right place for this debate I know ;/ sorry about that.

Still, the stat'd monk I gave above for a low point buy works fine. Decent ac, good amount of attacks and damage. The best? nope, but he isnt supposed to be. He is supposed to be a very well rounded character that can do pretty much anything that he needs to do. That is his job, be able to always have something to add, no matter what the circumstances. That is an important job indeed

 

[hong]

Early on, though, it just sucks to have a monk without a good Str 'cause otherwise . . . well, what can the monk do?

Heck, even later on, a monk without a good Str is sucky. Say you started with 10 Str at 1st level, and at 20th, you've increased that to 20 Str. Therefore, you do 2d10+5 = 16 on average with each hit. Meanwhile, the barbarian with the greatsword is probably doing 2d6+5 (enhancement) +15 (Str) +2d6 (holy) +1d6 (flaming) = 34 on average per hit, when raging (and he will most definitely be raging in each fight that counts). Even a sword+shield fighter is doing 1d8 +5 (enhancement) +8 (Str) +4 (WS/GWS) +2d6 (holy) +1d6 (flaming) = 32 on average, and I'm being conservative. 20 Str also means you're not going to trip or grapple anything worth mentioning. The exception might be the aforementioned wimpy mages, for what it's worth.

 

[hong]

Still, the stat'd monk I gave above for a low point buy works fine.

For certain values of "fine", anyway.

Decent ac, good amount of attacks and damage. The best? nope, but he isnt supposed to be. He is supposed to be a very well rounded character that can do pretty much anything that he needs to do.

... except be decent in combat, which is what the monk should be. That's what the class is supposed to represent, a combat guy. The fact that people can make up handwaves after-the-fact to shoehorn the class into a game doesn't change this.

That is his job, be able to always have something to add, no matter what the circumstances. That is an important job indeed

For certain values of "important", anyway.

 

[Scion]

Heck, even later on, a monk without a good Str is sucky. Say you started with 10 Str at 1st level, and at 20th, you've increased that to 20 Str. Therefore, you do 2d10+5 = 16 on average with each hit. Meanwhile, the barbarian with the greatsword is probably doing 2d6+5 (enhancement) +15 (Str) +2d6 (holy) +1d6 (flaming) = 34 on average per hit, when raging (and he will most definitely be raging in each fight that counts). Even a sword+shield fighter is doing 1d8 +5 (enhancement) +8 (Str) +4 (WS/GWS) +2d6 (holy) +1d6 (flaming) = 32 on average, and I'm being conservative. 20 Str also means you're not going to trip or grapple anything worth mentioning. The exception might be the aforementioned wimpy mages, for what it's worth.

Of course, this is horrible comparison you give the monk effectively nothing, and everyone else gets loads of magical equipment.

'1st level commoners are too strong! he beat up our 5th level party! of course he had some item that gave him infinite spell resistance, a touch ac of 100 and damage of 5d20 to any target up to 3 miles.. but it was the commoner that was the bad part!'

Sure, whatever you say.

how about we give the monk a bunch of extra equipment to make them a bit more even?

Pick up that ring which makes the wearer one size category larger, pick up a monks belt, pick up an item that casts greater magic fang a few times a day at a decent plus. Now, your barb still has a whole lot more gp in equipment, but now the monk does: 6d8 +10 (avg 37) with more attacks. Plus he has an extra 100kgp to play with. Not too shabby.

 

[hong]

Of course, this is horrible comparison you give the monk effectively nothing, and everyone else gets loads of magical equipment.

Stuff and nonsense.

how about we give the monk a bunch of extra equipment to make them a bit more even?

How do you think you get that 10 Str up to 20? Play tiddlywinks?

Pick up that ring which makes the wearer one size category larger,

What "ring that makes the wearer one size category larger"?

pick up a monks belt,

Which doesn't affect damage.

pick up an item that casts greater magic fang a few times a day at a decent plus.

That's the only thing that might affect damage in this situation.

Now, your barb still has a whole lot more gp in equipment, but now the monk does: 6d8 +10 (avg 37) with more attacks. Plus he has an extra 100kgp to play with. Not too shabby.

And the barb (and anyone else) can do exactly the same thing wrt enlarge person. It's entirely irrelevant, unless you mean to say that the barb has more money left over.

 

[CPXB]

To me, all these level 20 examples and illustrations are weird. I mean, I never have seen a game at these levels -- not just been in, never seen. Most games, in my experience, wind up way before level 20. To me, all these sorts of illustrations are very, very hypothetical.

Which is also another reason why I've been leery of accepting arguments about how monks become balanced at some hypothetical higher level. In my game, the characters go up in level about once a month (which is pretty typical). Saying that my 6th level monk is gonna be balance at level 13 is saying, y'know, "Oh, wait SEVEN MONTHS and your monk will be OK." The level 20 examples I feel are wholly apocryphal -- a place I'll never be.

So why the examples are interesting, I've been wondering why people focus on the really high level stuff instead of the stuff that is more commonly played -- the 1st through 10th level stuff.

 

[hong]

To me, all these level 20 examples and illustrations are weird. I mean, I never have seen a game at these levels -- not just been in, never seen. Most games, in my experience, wind up way before level 20. To me, all these sorts of illustrations are very, very hypothetical.

Which is also another reason why I've been leery of accepting arguments about how monks become balanced at some hypothetical higher level. In my game, the characters go up in level about once a month (which is pretty typical). Saying that my 6th level monk is gonna be balance at level 13 is saying, y'know, "Oh, wait SEVEN MONTHS and your monk will be OK." The level 20 examples I feel are wholly apocryphal -- a place I'll never be.

So why the examples are interesting, I've been wondering why people focus on the really high level stuff instead of the stuff that is more commonly played -- the 1st through 10th level stuff.

The thing is that with the rate of XP gain in 3E, any long-term campaign is likely to end up in the 15-20 range before too long -- say 18 months to 2 years. Therefore, what might have seemed like an unattainable end in 2E is actually within reach, and so high-level comparisons do have some relevance to actual play.

 

[Scion]

Stuff and nonsense.

you certainly do spout a lot of drivel, why is that?

How do you think you get that 10 Str up to 20? Play tiddlywinks?

with a lesser investment than your barb going from str X to str 30.

Which doesn't affect damage.

Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Ahh.. so increaseing damage doesnt effect damage. I'll remember that for the future hong.

That's the only thing that might affect damage in this situation.

other than say.. all of the other things that also effect damage. one of the two.

And the barb (and anyone else) can do exactly the same thing wrt enlarge person. It's entirely irrelevant, unless you mean to say that the barb has more money left over.

Sure he could, but I was going by your example. he had already used up X amount of gear gp. I merely made an example that did better and had a lesser cost. Not that each of these examples couldnt be improved of course, I was merely going with the boundaries you had already in place for your barb.

Easy enough. In this example the monk wins, hands down.

 

[Scion]

So why the examples are interesting, I've been wondering why people focus on the really high level stuff instead of the stuff that is more commonly played -- the 1st through 10th level stuff.

Strangely, my example above works at the lower levels as well, with change left over The only thing that was level dependant was the actual damage being dealt.

 

[CPXB]

The thing is that with the rate of XP gain in 3E, any long-term campaign is likely to end up in the 15-20 range before too long -- say 18 months to 2 years. Therefore, what might have seemed like an unattainable end in 2E is actually within reach, and so high-level comparisons do have some relevance to actual play.

That's be the thing, then: IME, games don't generally last more than a year or so. Heck, one of the GMs I know has his games generally last a semester before winding them up.