D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

[James Gasik]

Synaptic Static is nasty, sure, but has your DM encountered Tasha's Mind Whip? A second level INT-save spell that will render encounters with purple worms and the vast majority of MM creatures pointless. 5e doesn't design its creatures to make INT saves. With the exception things like an archmage or lich, they're screwed.

No, but mostly because I've specialized in area control spells, to the point that, when faced with a single boss, I usually toss out cantrip attacks, lol. It comes from playing other versions of the game, where I would get really annoyed when I cast a spell and the target saves and that's it. I figure with multiple targets, someone is likely to fail so I feel like I'm doing something.

It took awhile to realize many foes have abysmal saves so I probably could get away with something like TMW, but I've yet to really add any to my spellbook to date.

 

[Zardnaar]

Synaptic Static is nasty, sure, but has your DM encountered Tasha's Mind Whip? A second level INT-save spell that will render encounters with purple worms and the vast majority of MM creatures pointless. 5e doesn't design its creatures to make INT saves. With the exception things like an archmage or lich, they're screwed.

Best save in game to target. Then charisma.

Even wisdoms weak on a lot of monsters.

Got a huge amount of push back on saying fireballs a C tier spell. Vs better options now.....

Seems peopke missed the memo on those spells. I guess because synaptic static is in tbe phb now.

Theory crafted aberration mind sorcerer using int save targeting spells.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Part of this is simply the length of dnd combat. A round of combat can take 30 min or even an hour if its an involved one. Even an effect that takes you out for a single round can still be a solid portion of that evening's game time.

Not ever at my tables. As DM, I consider myself to have failed at prep if a round takes longer than 10 minutes. And I begin to think that something's wrong when rounds take longer than 5 minutes. Combat still takes a while - but usually the greatest time sinks are taking initiative and drawing out or assembling the battle map.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not ever at my tables. As DM, I consider myself to have failed at prep if a round takes longer than 10 minutes. And I begin to think that something's wrong when rounds take longer than 5 minutes. Combat still takes a while - but usually the greatest time sinks are taking initiative and drawing out or assembling the battle map.

Damn. Unofficially you get about s minute. If you're really dragging it out dodge action pass tge turn.

 

[Horwath]

I don't like anyone being stunlocked out of a combat unless they're an unimportant mook or bodyguard. Having the boss unable to act? That sucks. Players? Even worse.
I hate my players' missing their turns in 5e.. this isn't simpler systems where a round of combat takes less than a minute or two. Modern DnD turns can take time!
I much prefer debilitating effects that nerf them, rather than Stun completely locking out of them making choices. I house-ruled the Stunned condition for this reason: it's basically like being Slowed, except everything's also at disadvantage and anything that Stun would auto-fail you still auto-fail. So PCs can still do something, even if it's not full-on.

If you're petrified.. well crap, that's a longer-term issue that goes beyond this combat :'D

So I actually sort of like that, for example, ghouls' paralysis in 5e24 only lasts one round! It also makes it so that if you save, you can still be paralyzed next round, rather than being immune to ghoul paralysis for a whole day. I never cared for that "immune for 24hrs" solution.

Stun can be reworked to 5 temporary exhaustion levels that cannot kill you.
little modified, it would be:
-5 to all d20 rolls,
-5 to all your DCs,
-5 to your AC
-12,5ft move speed(round down to -10ft speed)

at the end of every of your turns, you remove 1 exhaustion level or all of them if you succeed the save.

if 5 exhaustion levels are too little, you can make it 10.
they will still be gone in one minute or less.

 

[Zardnaar]

Stun can be reworked to 5 temporary exhaustion levels that cannot kill you.
little modified, it would be:
-5 to all d20 rolls,
-5 to all your DCs,
-5 to your AC
-12,5ft move speed(round down to -10ft speed)

at the end of every of your turns, you remove 1 exhaustion level or all of them if you succeed the save.

if 5 exhaustion levels are too little, you can make it 10.
they will still be gone in one minute or less.

Doesn’t do much to spellcasters.

 

[Distracted DM]

Stun can be reworked to 5 temporary exhaustion levels that cannot kill you.
little modified, it would be:
-5 to all d20 rolls,
-5 to all your DCs,
-5 to your AC
-12,5ft move speed(round down to -10ft speed)

at the end of every of your turns, you remove 1 exhaustion level or all of them if you succeed the save.

if 5 exhaustion levels are too little, you can make it 10.
they will still be gone in one minute or less.

My full stun rules:

A stunned creature's speed is halved and can speak only falteringly; it cannot cast leveled spells requiring a vocal component.
A stunned creature cannot take reactions or concentrate.
On its turn, a stunned creature can take either an action or a bonus action, not both. In addition, it can't make more than one melee or ranged attack during its turn. Its attack rolls and ability checks are made at Disadvantage.
It automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.

 

[Horwath]

Doesn’t do much to spellcasters.

reduces your DCs by 5, that is a lot, you can take a chance or rely on buffs/healing/summons, but since summons use your spell attack, that is also penalized and ofc Con saves for Conc are really tough.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

Doesn’t do much to spellcasters.

Force them to make concentration checks to cast any spell while stunned?

 

[nevin]

While I don't play 2024 rules, I'll briefly chime in on save or suck spells in general: I love them!

BUT... (huge BUT! )

The effects need to be tempered with the spell level (or tier really) and DM adjucation.

2nd-level suggestion just making the ally walk away? No. It is too powerful for a 2nd-level spell IMO and has been an issue on boards before.

Another issue is the new wording in 2024. In 2014, the DM decided if the request was "reasonable". Having the half dragon leaving its ally/master in a time of need is NOT reasonable. But, in 2024, the wording actually specifies "Stop fighting, leave this library peacefully, and don't return" as an example! This sort of puts DMs in a bad situation because now the very example of what the spell can do compels the DM to allow it. It is another case where the text in the rules is trying to tie the hands of the DM.


Nothing against this obviously, but why did the black dragon breath just hit one PC? Just curious about the encounter layt out.


Does it trigger OA in 2024? I thought forced movment trigger them?


Wow. It never made any save triggered by the damage it was taking?

Finally, another issue with save or suck spells is creatures (particularly) not having saving throw proficiencies sometimes.

Ultimately, any saving throw spell or effect can cause issues. When I was playing a 5E game a few years back the DM pulled particularly nasty combos with a Beholder. Two PCs died in two rounds. Even with random rolling for the eyes, one PC failed vs. Petrification twice (rounds 1 and 2)--turning to stone, and then was auto-Disintegrated (that same round). The other PC was Paralyzed next round (3), and then (in the same ROUND) double whammied with auto-failing Death Ray and Disintegrated for over 100 damage. We eventually won, but two PCs reduced to dust made it a hollow victory indeed. It was a series of lucky eye rolls by the DM and targeting PCs with weaker saves. But hey, its a fragging beholder and meant to kick ass, so none of really complained about it.

But, after that the DM decided to randomly order the eyes and require all 10 be used before any could be repeated in future games.

Or as DM consider that leaving peacefully may only be considered reasonable if the creatures Allies go as well. If they are truly allies is leaving your buddies to die reasonable. Probably not. . Now if he doesn't like his master maybe it is?