It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.


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This is where we depart. I can buy things from the company without forgiving it for what was done. It's going to take significantly more for me to forgive them for this. And I will never, ever trust them.

I don't know if we depart that much. I don't think of WotC as an entity that can earn or lose trust as a whole. I do trust the designers. I don't trust the suits.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't know of we depart that much. I don't think of WotC as an entity that can earn or lose trust as a whole. I do trust the designers. I don't trust the suits.
It's the suits that are the corporation, not the designers. ;)

Even if all the suits who initiated this fiasco leave the company, suits tend to be similarly minded people, so new suits will be just as capable of something like this as the ones there now.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
How do you "forgive" a company? It feels like the framing here is wrong.

I could potentially forgive the people who made the decisions that blew everything up if they were asking me for it. But they aren't and they won't. I don't even know who those people are, and it's not like they've committed to not make another terrible decision to blow everything up again, which I consider an important element of who I forgive and who I don't personally.

I have a transactional relationship with Hasbro the company not a personal one. They make things, I buy things. There are lots of reasons I might choose to not buy things from them, and in the past month they created a new one and then walked it back. So I'll continue to buy things from them if they make things I want to buy up until they make another boneheaded decision that makes me feel that I need to stop buying from them. But I wouldn't call that "forgiveness" - that's just commerce.

Forgiving a company for making a terrible decision feels a bit like forgiving a bear that messed up my campsite. I mean I guess I could do it but the bear doesn't care and will do it again if they can get away with it. The only one who might get something out of the act of forgiveness here is me, and that is probably wrapped up more in how an individual processes anger than anything else.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
There was a phrase I heard years ago that I really like.

"Forgiveness isn't about letting them off the hook. Forgiveness is about no longer allowing them to have the power to affect your emotions."

What's the other phrase? "You can't have redemption without repentance?" Something like that.

As a 3PP, I'm glad they backtracked. I really am. I don't think they had to if they didn't really want to (see other various posts I've made on the topic re: the importance of branding, how most gamers aren't on forums, etc.). But I'm glad they did.

But...

And that's a big but, trust is important. Before going back, I'd need 2 things: a big carrot, and protection/peace of mind they couldn't do it again. As a 3PP, I don't see myself using the OGL 2.0 going forward. Who knows what the future looks like. But with the move to CC, I can assure you that future products won't be using the OGL 1.0(a). Why? The CC offers me protection and pretty much the same thing I had before. I never used others' Open content anyway, so it doesn't impact me.
 

Aldarc

Legend
There was a phrase I heard years ago that I really like.

"Forgiveness isn't about letting them off the hook. Forgiveness is about no longer allowing them to have the power to affect your emotions."

What's the other phrase? "You can't have redemption without repentance?" Something like that.

As a 3PP, I'm glad they backtracked. I really am. I don't think they had to if they didn't really want to (see other various posts I've made on the topic re: the importance of branding, how most gamers aren't on forums, etc.). But I'm glad they did.

But...

And that's a big but, trust is important. Before going back, I'd need 2 things: a big carrot, and protection/peace of mind they couldn't do it again. As a 3PP, I don't see myself using the OGL 2.0 going forward. Who knows what the future looks like. But with the move to CC, I can assure you that future products won't be using the OGL 1.0(a). Why? The CC offers me protection and pretty much the same thing I had before. I never used others' Open content anyway, so it doesn't impact me.
Yeah, regardless of whether or not WotC backtracked or opened things up even more, damage has still been done and not everyone will be eager to return to WotC's OGL harbor.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
Yeah, regardless of whether or not WotC backtracked or opened things up even more, damage has still been done and not everyone will be eager to return to WotC's OGL harbor.
Ironically they probably have destroyed the OGL going forward faster and more completely than if they had gone through with their plans, which likely would have been a prolonged event full of potential litigation. It's a more subtle destruction, but the people who currently publish using it are going to get off of it now and not many new works are likely to be released under it.
 

Imaro

Legend
If a close friend of yours tries to shoot you and misses, then says they are really sorry and sells their gun, nothing has actually changed. You are alive and unharmed. He no longer has the gun. Are you just going to immediately forgive your friend because he got rid of the gun?
I don't agree with the analogy or the hyperbole around it. The OGL 1.0a being revoked is in no way comparable to someone trying to murder me. If a friend tried to take advantage of me (say trick me out of some money) and I protested his actions and he relented and gave me the money back and apologized... yeah I'd probably forgive him.
 



UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
I know you have asserted this in multiple threads, and I understand your reasoning, but the fact that they have yet to legally ensured the OGL remains irrevocable forever suggests it isn't as clear cut as that. Not revising OGL 1.0 in this way strongly suggests they are holding an option in reserve to try to nuke it again.
I do not believe that this in possible. My understanding (not a lawyer) based on the legal discussion, here and elsewhere, is that the claim to de-authorise the OGL was not legally tenable. That is, a publisher that continued to publish under the OGL would ultimately prove successful in court, if they could afford to carry the case until it came to trial.
I do not think it was an absolute certainty, as the actual legal arguments, the quality of the lawyers and the judge all effect the outcome but that the case was a strong one.
Everyone believed that the OGL was rock solid before this bout of shenanigans. Again from reading what the lawyers say, I do not believe that there is any formulation of words that would be rock solid enough to be free from a threat mounted by the combination of: a novel legal approach, and a mountain of cash being thrown around as a threat.
This is more a commercial (and may be an equality o justice ) issue.
The release of the SRD under the CC-BY 4.0 licence is as rock solid as you can get. That would get a lot more than gamers mad if someone tried to break that licence.

As for Third Party Publishers:
I would leave the existing OGL stuff where it is, it is safe enough for now.
I would get my base game rules out from under the OGL and move to the CC-BY-4.0 or the new ORC licence once the independent foundation is up and running.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't agree with the analogy or the hyperbole around it. The OGL 1.0a being revoked is in no way comparable to someone trying to murder me.
They tried to kill the businesses of all 3PP and VTT competitors and take away what for some was their livelihood and not just some money on the side.
If a friend tried to take advantage of me (say trick me out of some money) and I protested his actions and he relented and gave me the money back and apologized... yeah I'd probably forgive him.
I probably would as well, but it would take a very long time to fully forgive, and trust might never return. Much like with WotC.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I will probably always be wary around a person who brandishes a lethal weapon in my direction regardless of whether they used the weapon against me or decided not to. This is why many 3pp are looking at other licenses like CC or ORC. Not everyone feels as safe in WotC's "safe harbor" anymore. It's not about wanting to pounce on WotC; instead, it's about not wanting to risk being pounced on.
A corporation is not a person.
 





Aldarc

Legend
Sure, and that was true before. The point is that a corporation is not a being with agency, it's a network of people working towards a common goal, sometimes together and sometimes at cross purposes.

You cannot trust the network as a gestalt, but individuals maybe or maybe not.
This is trying to make a distinction without too much of a difference. Do you think that the people of Paizo care too much about this distinction when it comes to WotC threatening their business?
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
This is trying to make a distinction without too much of a difference. Do you think that the people of Paizo care too much about this distinction when it comes to WotC threatening their business?
No, pro baby not. But, as a consumer or a business, you shouldn't "trust" any corporation beyond legal obligations (and even that can be a fight). Anything more is gravy, and due to individual humans making good decisions.

Should people "truat" Paizo to do right by their employees, whixh was a bif quesrion last year? Itbetter now that they are unioinized, but that took a major public wffort to force on Paizo.
 

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