It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Faolyn]

I'm starting to feel WotC actively wants the game to be less interesting.

"Starting"? C'mon, we know you've felt that way for a while now!

 

[Faolyn]

Breaking into a house is, itself, a crime.
WotC did not commit any crimes.
They did something that made people upset? Sure. That gave people anxiety about the future? Yep.
But no crime. No actual violations of anyone's property or rights occurred.

Only because they were stopped.

They didn't stop themselves. They didn't say "hey, maybe this is a bad idea." Instead, there was an overwhelming show of support against them, a show that not only made it to major news outlets but caused many other big gaming companies to effectively form an alliance against them, which forced WotC to back down or lose money. They would have merrily continued doing "something that made people upset" if there hadn't been such a unified show of support.

 

[Pedantic]

Yeah, the status quo is gone, and WotC is at fault for breaking it. A world where they never used the word "deauthorized" is the better world we could have had, and that they crossed that line is the the thing they need to make up for.

The CC release is great, but I don't think it's completely restorative.

 

[Parmandur]

Only because they were stopped.

They didn't stop themselves. They didn't say "hey, maybe this is a bad idea." Instead, there was an overwhelming show of support against them, a show that not only made it to major news outlets but caused many other big gaming companies to effectively form an alliance against them, which forced WotC to back down or lose money. They would have merrily continued doing "something that made people upset" if there hadn't been such a unified show of support.

Yeah, and...? That's who they've always been, didn't stop me from buying hobby products from them before when I want them.

Here's an attempt at a better analogy: they are like a homeowner who has a pear tree in the front yard by the sidewalk. They have an understanding with their neighbors that anyone can pick pears, whenever they happen by, without asking first the homeowner is considering putting a fence up, and keeping all the pears to sell. Their neighbors get upset, petition them to stop, vow to never buy any pears if they try it, and threaten to ostracize them in public for being cheap. So, the homeowner backs off, and keeps the tree up and free to access.

 

[Pedantic]

Yeah, and...? That's who they've always been, didn't stop me from buying hobby products from them before when I want them.

Here's an attempt at a better analogy: they are like a homeowner who has a pear tree in the front yard by the sidewalk. They have an understanding with their neighbors that anyone can pick pears, whenever they happen by, without asking first the homeowner is considering putting a fence up, and keeping all the pears to sell. Their neighbors get upset, petition them to stop, vow to never buy any pears if they try it, and threaten to ostracize them in public for being cheap. So, the homeowner backs off, and keeps the tree up and free to access.

Except they had engraved a sign next to the tree saying "help yourself, just make sure you call them Bob's Pears if anyone asks, we planted this tree specifically to feed the public."

This analogy game sucks. We're just arguing whether or not we think WotC's reaction and apology means we're back to the state we were before they ever made an attempt at this. The camps are that trying to do it at all was the injury, and that not actually doing it means they haven't injured anyone.

The former position wants some guarantee they won't ever do it again and restitution, the latter I don't agree/empathize with with to be able to present in a fair way. "The world is bad and we should expect to be screwed a little from time to time and it's nice it wasn't that bad", is my best attempt?

 

[Micah Sweet]

"Starting"? C'mon, we know you've felt that way for a while now!

True enough.

 

[Parmandur]

Except they had engraved a sign next to the tree saying "help yourself, just make sure you call them Bob's Pears if anyone asks, we planted this tree specifically to feed the public."

This analogy game sucks. We're just arguing whether or not we think WotC's reaction and apology means we're back to the state we were before they ever made an attempt at this. The camps are that trying to do it at all was the injury, and that not actually doing it means they haven't injured anyone.

The former position wants some guarantee they won't ever do it again and restitution, the latter I don't agree/empathize with with to be able to present in a fair way. "The world is bad and we should expect to be screwed a little from time to time and it's nice it wasn't that bad", is my best attempt?

And that sign could be taken down at any time. In fact, that is pretty much exactly the real deal legal analogy I've seen floating around for WotC standing here in deauthorization (h/t @pemerton )

The CC is a stone-cold, rock-solid guarantee, in my book: WotC has no play to use if they wanted to at any point in the future.

 

[Parmandur]

Right now? I dint want to put money in the pockets of whoever made the OGL 1.1 decision.

Well, right now I would like to hear from Kyle Brink that some heads rolled for this.

 

[Pedantic]

And that sign could be taken down at any time. In fact, that is pretty much exactly the real deal legal analogy I've seen floating around for WotC standing here in deauthorization (h/t @pemerton )

The CC is a stone-cold, rock-solid guarantee, in my book: WotC has no play to use if they wanted to at any point in the future.

I honestly don't care about the legalities, this is a question of ethics. They clearly presented it as forever, and I took them at their word, there is no argument that will persuade me their behavior was acceptable.

We could argue about whether the CC release is adequately restorative, I personally don't think we're there yet. I'm honestly more interested in hearing how they plan to change to not do this in the future, though I'd probably take a release of older SRDs as an effective solution. Leadership changes would also salve things, or heck, even a clear communication about how this idea arouse internally and how new policies are in place to make such a proposal untenable in future night work, if they could bear to air that much dirt laundry.

 

[Parmandur]

I honestly don't care about the legalities, this is a question of ethics. They clearly presented it as forever, and I took them at their word, there is no argument that will persuade me their behavior was acceptable.

We could argue about whether the CC release is adequately restorative, I personally don't think we're there yet. I'm honestly more interested in hearing how they plan to change to not do this in the future, though I'd probably take a release of older SRDs as an effective solution. Leadership changes would also salve things, or heck, even a clear communication about how this idea arouse internally and how new policies are in place to make such a proposal untenable in future night work, if they could bear to air that much dirt laundry.

I mean, all the OGL is, is legalities. Ethically, it's always been above and beyond what they needed to do. I never felt owed "Open Gaming" by them.

The CC release effectively kneecaps WotC: there isn't much they can do again, ever. More would be nice, we'll see what they say.