items that are just better (aka power creep)

[evilbob]

So we've gotten a few books out now - and a few Dragon magazines - and I've already run into quite a decent number of items that are just plain BETTER than similar items of equal or higher level. I'm talking about things like the Dragon 365 Cannith Goggles, which as a level 1 item gives a +2 item bonus to perception checks plus it has a (crappy-ish) daily item power as compared to the level 1 Headband of Perception from the AV which gives... a +1 item bonus to perception and nothing else. I'm talking about items where there is absolutely no reason not to get one over the other. Items that anyone who actually read all these books and magazines would immediately recognize the disparity.

I think it's pretty apparent that no one really copy-edits these books before they are published (for more about this statement, see page XX), but I thought we could - as a collective group - help inform others who, like the publishers, don't have the time to pore through all the books and check for stuff like this. Basically, it's like a list for those who like some simple optimization (ok, "min-maxing") but don't really want to do it themselves.

I'll start.

- As above: Cannith Goggles, level 1, Dragon 365; compared to: Headband of Perception, level 1, AV p142. +2 item bonus to perception checks (and daily power) head slot item vs. +1 item bonus to perception checks head slot item.

- Summoned armor, level 6/11/16/etc., AV p53; compared to: Magic armor, level 6/11/16/etc., PHB p230. Summoned armor has an additional (minor at-will) effect for no additional cost. Both can be applied to any type of +2 or higher armor.

- Imposter's chain, scale, or plate armor, level 6/11/16/etc., AV p46; compared to: Magic chain, scale, or plate armor, level 6/11/16/etc., PHB p230. Like Summoned armor but only for chain, scale, or plate.

- Dynamic melee weapon, level 6/11/16/etc., AV p68; compared to: Magic melee weapon, level 6/11/16/etc., PHB 235. Same bonuses but the dynamic has a slight advantage with its extra power.

- Sacrificial melee weapon, level 6/11/16/etc., AV p68; compared to: Magic melee weapon, level 6/11/16/etc., PHB 235. Same as above.

- Reading Spectacles, level 2, AV p144; compared to: Lens of Reading, level 7, AV p175. This is my favorite: you can either keep a level 2 head slot item around and switch it out when you're not in danger, or keep a level 7 wondrous item that uses a daily item power and only lasts an hour. They do the same thing, except the level 2 item is even better because it can read ANY language, whereas the level 7 can only read ONE language.



I'll also include items that are close, but not always strictly better, just for those who might want to take a look and decide which is better for them:

- Distance ranged weapon, level 1/6/11/etc., AV p68; compared to: Magic ranged weapon, level 1/6/11/etc., PHB p235. A magic weapon offers the advantage of a +Xd6 on a crit, but a distance weapon increases the range by a small amount for every throw.

- Following the above example: AV, various pages: Battering, Blacksmelt, Grasping, Ricochet weapons. They all have costs equal to Magic weapons, do not do bonus damage on a crit and are limited to a type of weapon, but have other powers.

- Amulet of Resolution, level 2, AV p149; compared to Circlet of Second Chances, level 3, AV p139. It's a neck slot item vs. a head slot item with the same daily power, so it's not strictly better, but it is one level lower and it gives a +1 to defenses.



These are just off the top of my head. Even if you use the argument that higher level items (level 6 and up) should have better bonuses than plain items of equal level, this list is still worth making. I pretty sure there are probably more saving-throw-related items that should be on this list that are still out there, too. Please add away!

 

[chitzk0i]

Have you ever seen any of these actually used? A lot of them have very marginal uses. Like the Sacrificial weapon. Spend a healing surge to weaken an enemy for one singular round? Might be decent on a solo, but that's about it.

Let's say you're making a level ten character. Your magic items are level 11, level 10, and level 9. If you want to use your highest-level slot on your weapon, these items will let you get a weapon that's not plain vanilla.

You do have a point about the reading spectacles, though.

 

[bganon]

Minor quibbles:

- Reading Spectacles, level 2, AV p144; compared to: Lens of Reading, level 7, AV p175. This is my favorite: you can either keep a level 2 head slot item around and switch it out when you're not in danger, or keep a level 7 wondrous item that uses a daily item power and only lasts an hour. They do the same thing, except the level 2 item is even better because it can read ANY language, whereas the level 7 can only read ONE language.

These aren't the same, especially if you ever need to read some important inscription while fending off waves of demons. The lens is nice for that, because you can keep something more combat-related in the head slot. Also, while it seems a minor detail, the lens removes the component cost from the Comprehend Language ritual, so the ritual is essentially free at that point (and uses no reagents) and therefore can be used on the spot with no preparation as long as you've got 10 minutes. That's actually pretty nice if your DM tracks that kind of stuff. IMO, the lens is probably still a bit overpriced (or rather, the spectacles are way underpriced), but being slotless is a big deal.

Also, I think the Sacrificial Weapon is dangerously close to being flat-out worse than a plain magic weapon, because I really think weakening your target for a round is hardly ever going to actually be worth the cost. It's a deceptively poor ability, and looks too much like bait for suckers to me.

 

[evilbob]

I think the ritual cost is actually a bad example since the level 2 glasses negate the need for the ritual completely. And they work instantly (or in a couple of actions at most), instead of in 10 minutes. (And if you're waiting 10 minutes, you could have just switched head items out.) I know a wondrous item is slotless and that's technically better, but is it 5 levels and an item daily power better? Nowhere near. Honestly, even the headslot argument for the middle of battle isn't that good: I'd still rather save my daily item power and spend a couple of actions switching head items than to use this item over the glasses. And other than that hyper-specific instance, it's a winner hands-down.

Sacrificial weapon may or may not be a horrible power, but it's still something, which is more than nothing. If I got a +6 armor to choose, I'd still choose that over a Magic armor.

 

[IanArgent]

Don't some of those magic weapons not add additional Critical damage? That is a point against them, if true. Check all the powers of the armors as well.

 

[bganon]

The glasses do not negate the ritual - the glasses only ever allow reading, but the ritual allows reading and listening, and with a high enough check, speaking and writing. I completely agree that the lens shouldn't be 5 levels and a item power use "better", but I don't think the lens is obviously flat-out worse.

And I don't think something is better than nothing if the something is basically a trap that tricks people into a poor decision. What if a weapon had a power: "for your next attack, roll twice with a +2 bonus to each roll, but use the lower result"? Most people won't do the math, and some people might be tempted to use it occasionally... but it's almost never going to be a good idea, and often a very bad one.

 

[Obryn]

Honestly, I think this is an inherent problem with all +1 weapons being levels 1-5, all +2's being levels 6-10, and so on.

*shrug*

-O

 

[mattdm]

Honestly, I think this is an inherent problem with all +1 weapons being levels 1-5, all +2's being levels 6-10, and so on.

Yeah, with the net result being that most level 6, 11, etc., treasure is boring. I'm never going to give out the plain magic sword, so I'm glad that there's an option that's at least vanilla-flavored.

 

[Saeviomagy]

And I don't think something is better than nothing if the something is basically a trap that tricks people into a poor decision. What if a weapon had a power: "for your next attack, roll twice with a +2 bonus to each roll, but use the lower result"? Most people won't do the math, and some people might be tempted to use it occasionally... but it's almost never going to be a good idea, and often a very bad one.

The argument "people make bad decisions and don't read the rules" seems particularly out of place in a forum post about analyzing benefits and disadvantages of items on a board that discusses rules...

While it's true that the power you suggested (and the power of the sacrifical weapon) are easy to use badly, they also have a potential for benefit. Furthermore in both cases the risk/reward can be calculated using values known by the player.

 

[Ahglock]

I'll agree that the levels are off a bit for there items under the system that is in place. But when two items and one is better are the same level, sometimes it works. There is only so much gradation you can have with 30 levels. Sure an item is strictly better but is it 1 levels worth better?

In the case of things like the reading spectacles its just a screw up. But I don't really think summoned armor is better by a large enough margin to make it a higher level item.