D&D 5E It's Official! Most of my encounters are "Deadly" (now updated with info through the end of 2022!)

[Nefermandias]

I'm pretty sure that WotC changed the game from 3-4 encounters per day to 6-8 encounters per day by just halving the encounter XP budgets and leaving the daily budgets untouched. "Deadly" encounters are probably closer to medium-hard.

Compared to what? 4e?

 

[Flamestrike]

You asserting something is in "completely untrue" without explaining why is pretty crap argumentation, mate.

I did explain it, in the very next post, including the actual adventure being discussed, by showing it actually came with a doom clock attached RAW.

And your "how is altering the adventure by making the clock specific 'altering the adventure'?!?!!" is pretty funny

Except that's not what I said mate. I said making the clock specific to the adventure doesn't DRASTICALY alter the adventure.

By adapting the hook to some relevant doom clock (or temporal constraint) you are far from drastically altering the adventure, and my point (that pretty much every adventure ever written ever has some hook that can be framed in a doom clock or similar) stands.

Remember - you were arguing 'older adventures dont lend themselves to Doom clocks'.

I countered with literally every single part of 3.5's Age of Worms campaign, several Pathfinder modules (Kobold king etc) and the C series of AD&D modules (specifically Lost island of Castanamir, White Plume Mountain, Tomb of Horrors), all of which I have run and all of which had easy to implement Doom clocks that tied directly into the hook and did not in any way drastically alter the adventure.

Basically you arguing for a One True Way-ist approach

I did the exact opposite. I advocate for temporal pressures for several reasons (namely 5E's resource management system model, and the added verisimilitude and pacing advantage it grants to stories, while also giving the PCs the feeling of affecting the world), but Im not arguing 'you must do it or else'.

If you want to run single encounter adventuring days of Deadly++++ encounters, and it works at your table, go nuts. Im not stopping you or saying 'you're wrong'.

Personally I would find rocket tag campaigns like that boring as hell, and the balance problems would also make me avoid such a game.

I'm simply saying:

1) There is another way other than rocket tag,
2) The other way (temporal constraints and doom clocks) make for an overall better 5E experience for me, and
3) It can be easily implemented, even in modules from 1st-4th edition, and from 3PP and other systems.

If you disagree with any of those points, have at it. Otherwise please stop putting words in my mouth that arent there.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I did the exact opposite. I advocate for temporal pressures for several reasons (namely 5E's resource management system model, and the added verisimilitude and pacing advantage it grants to stories, while also giving the PCs the feeling of affecting the world), but Im not arguing 'you must do it or else'.

I literally quoted where you repeatedly claimed it wouldn't be fun if you didn't, and you've repeatedly previously suggested it 5E doesn't work unless you do.

However, as you're clarifying your position here:

Im not arguing 'you must do it or else'.

If you want to run single encounter adventuring days of Deadly++++ encounters, and it works at your table, go nuts. Im not stopping you or saying 'you're wrong'.

I don't see any reason to argue. That's a totally reasonable position. It's not what I got from your previous posts, but fair enough, the misunderstanding could be on my part.

Personally I broadly agree that 5E works better with more encounters, but I also find it puts a cramp on my style so hardcore I can't bring myself to do it unless there's a very naturalistic reason. Also whilst Deadly++++ does tend to be a car crash, it does seem like 3-4 just barely Deadly encounters can work pretty well, at least with some groups.

 

[el-remmen]

The first data dump of the day:

The Danger at Dunwater (from Ghosts of Saltmarsh)

20	Bullywugs (6)	5/3	1/4	Easy
21	Bullywugs (6), Bullywug Croaker (1), Bullywug Chief (1), Giant Toad (1)	5/3	1/4, 2, 3, 1	Deadly
22	Koalinth Sergeant (1), Koalinth (3)	5/3	2, 1/2	Deadly
23	Lizardfolk Priest(1), Lizardfolk (3), Lizardfolk Scaleshield (1), Thousand Teeth	5/3	2, 1/2, 1, 6	Deadly*

Notes: All of these encounters included an NPC companion sea elf who is not a very good fighter. I accidentally did not run the "random" encounter with the bullywugs the way it is laid out in the book. I though they would arrive in completely distinct waves at different points in traveling from Saltmarsh to the lizardfolk lair. So the first six bullywugs were on their own and then I had waves 2 and 3 appear soon after each other as part of the same big fight. Encounter 20 was not actually "easy." This might be because I give bullywugs a special hop attack (see my classic Eric Noah's Unoffical 3E News Forum thread "BULLYWUGS GOT THE SHAFT" circa 2000) but mostly because they ambushed the PCs in a sinkhole which created a cool environment for fighting. The second bullywug fight (encounter 21) was at an oxbow with a fallen tree and was definitely hard (at two different times two different PCs were swallowed by the toad and then got out - the second time killing it in the process). Another complication was that the PCs had their essentially non-combatant manservant and his ox with them, which meant having to defend him and the pack animal. The koalinth fight was far from deadly and the PCs were doing their best to not fight and to do so non-lethally when they did because the koalinth were fellow guests of the lizardfolk. They did end up killing one and the others were either unconscious or stopped by arriving lizardfolk who made them leave. Finally, encounter 23 is a real example of the kind of encounters I like - with a random element. In this case, the lizardfolk priest and his followers represented a cultural/religious schism in the lizardfolk community, and when the queen sent the PCs to kill Thousand Teeth (a legendary monster), the priest decided if he killed the PCs instead and brought their bodies back, it would prove that Semuanya was on his side and the queen would be overthrown. Thus he planned an ambush in the giant croc's territory. However, Thousand Teeth is an indiscriminate killer and didn't care if the lizardfolk present "were on his side" thus it was as likely to attack a lizardfolk as it was the PCs (and it did). During this fight the ranger and the druid both dropped to 0 hps.

Edit to add: No rests were taken between these encounters - except technically the long rests when the party camped out the night after the second bullywug encounter and spent the night as guests of the lizardfolk in their lair after the koalinth fight and before heading out to 1000 Teeth's territory. But neither of these were, "we're low on resources" rests, they were "it is night time and time to sleep" rests.

 

[dave2008]

The first data dump of the day:

The Danger at Dunwater (from Ghosts of Saltmarsh)

20	Bullywugs (6)	5/3	1/4	Easy
21	Bullywugs (6), Bullywug Croaker (1), Bullywug Chief (1), Giant Toad (1)	5/3	1/4, 2, 3, 1	Deadly
22	Koalinth Sergeant (1), Koalinth (3)	5/3	2, 1/2	Deadly
23	Lizardfolk Priest(1), Lizardfolk (3), Lizardfolk Scaleshield (1), Thousand Teeth	5/3	2, 1/2, 1, 6	Deadly*

Notes: All of these encounters included an NPC companion sea elf who is not a very good fighter. I accidentally did not run the "random" encounter with the bullywugs the way it is laid out in the book. I though they would arrive in completely distinct waves at different points in traveling from Saltmarsh to the lizardfolk lair. So the first six bullywugs were on their own and then I had waves 2 and 3 appear soon after each other as part of the same big fight. Encounter 20 was not actually "easy." This might be because I give bullywugs a special hop attack (see my classic Eric Noah's Unoffical 3E News Forum thread "BULLYWUGS GOT THE SHAFT" circa 2000) but mostly because they ambushed the PCs in a sinkhole which created a cool environment for fighting. The second bullywug fight (encounter 21) was at an oxbow with a fallen tree and was definitely hard (at two different times two different PCs were swallowed by the toad and then got out - the second time killing it in the process). Another complication was that the PCs had their essentially non-combatant manservant and his ox with them, which meant having to defend him and the pack animal. The koalinth fight was far from deadly and the PCs were doing their best to not fight and to do so non-lethally when they did because the koalinth were fellow guests of the lizardfolk. They did end up killing one and the others were either unconscious or stopped by arriving lizardfolk who made them leave. Finally, encounter 23 is a real example of the kind of encounters I like - with a random element. In this case, the lizardfolk priest and his followers represented a cultural/religious schism in the lizardfolk community, and when the queen sent the PCs to kill Thousand Teeth (a legendary monster), the priest decided if he killed the PCs instead and brought their bodies back, it would prove that Semuanya was on his side and the queen would be overthrown. Thus he planned an ambush in the giant croc's territory. However, Thousand Teeth is an indiscriminate killer and didn't care if the lizardfolk present "were on his side" thus it was as likely to attack a lizardfolk as it was the PCs (and it did). During this fight the ranger and the druid both dropped to 0 hps.

Thank you for the added info - really helpful and fun to read. How did you determine who Thousand Teeth attacked?

 

[el-remmen]

How did you determine who Thousand Teeth attacked?

A lot of the fight he was out of sight underwater and would pop up to bite someone and try to pull them down. So keeping in mind where he was, even if not visible, I decided based on who was closest/closest to a spot it could drag them back into the water. When people were equidistant I rolled a die. However, he had a preference for those who attacked him - so the PCs were at a disadvantage because they were the only ones doing that. Again, it led to a tactical fight with people moving to try to attack the croc from a distance when it popped up and trying to keep it closer to their foes.

 

[el-remmen]

I've shared this photo b4, but here is 1000 Teeth in action!

 

[el-remmen]

We are nearly caught up to the present.

BTW, each of these posts represents the number of encounters before I awarded XP. So despite being two different "adventures" (a Dungeon mag sidetrek and "Salvage Operation" from Ghosts of Saltmarsh), it represents all the encounters btwn two XP awards (though not necessarily level advancement).

The Whale (from Dungeon Magazine #32 1992)

24

Knight (1), Scout (1), Guards (5)

4/4

3, 1/8, 1/2

Deadly*

Notes: This is another weird one and represents my aim to create situations the PCs encounter that they decide how to handle without my having a set goal or solution in mind. In this case, on their way to a place called Brackwater Styes to catch the ship to take them on their next adventure they stumble upon two rival groups arguing over a huge beached whale that represents a huge boon for each of their communities. One group is a bunch of commoner fisherman, accompanied by a young capable veteran and a village priestess. There are 12 of them total. The other group are the ones listed above that the PCs decided were bullies and routed, which the commoners then joined in the fighting seeing they had powerful allies. In the end, one person on either side died (not a PC) and the warrior types fled to be the plot of potential future adventure to come. As such, the "deadly" rating doesn't work because the PCs had 12 (mostly ineffectual) allies! I guess I should list their CRs and difficulty as well.

Priestess (1), Veteran (1), Fishermen (10)

4/4

1/4, 2, 0

Hard

Clearly even with CR 0, straight up numbers advantage pushes an encounter difficulty up precipitously.

Salvage Operation (from Ghosts of Saltmarsh)

25	Ettercap (1), Giant Spider (2), Swarm of Spiders (1)	3/4	2, 1, 1/2	Deadly
26	Tiefling Druid (1), Giant Spiders (2), Phase Spider (1)	4/4	2, 1, 3	Deadly
27	Ettercap, Giant Wolf Spiders (2)	4/4	2, 1/4	Medium
28	Maw Demons (4)	4/4	1	Hard
29	Ghouls (6)	4/4	1	Deadly

Notes: So for the first encounter, the party druid was in octopus form finding another way into the hulk of the foundering ship. He actually encountered the four of the six ghouls in the bilge by himself! But got away unspotted in his animal form to catch up with the party half way through Encounter #26. I inadvertently made encounter #26 even deadlier by making the druid in the adventure a tiefling (and thus some of those abilities) and gave her a magic sword that struck for poison and a scarab that protects against poison (the party's tiefling ranger now uses these). The maw demon fight felt more like "Medium." The ghoul battle was indeed very difficult. The adventure originally called for four ghasts, but a future adventure I am running focuses on troglodytes and I hate that nothing really differentiates their stench powers, so four ghasts became 6 ghouls (at some point down the line I will change what a ghast's stench power does). Another interesting point, was that the PCs took the tiefling prisoner, stablizing her and tying her up (not knowing she could wildshape) and when they left her out in the hall to deal with the demons in a cabin, she got away. Three PCs did almost die on this adventure, but two due near drowning when the ship began to sink and they were caught below, not from monsters.

I forgot to mention, a critical hit followed up by a roll of max. damage from the barbarian took out that phase spider in two rounds.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that the party took no rests between these encounters. They considered a short rest before dealing with the ghouls, but were concerned about the tiefling's escape and the potential for the ship to start sinking.

 

[el-remmen]

Edited previous post to add info about rests.

 

[el-remmen]

And here is the final one (for now):

Against the Cult of the Reptile God - part one (1E AD&D Adventure adapted to 5E)

Encounter #	Monsters (#)	# of (N)PCs / Levels​	CRs​	Difficulty​
30​	Assassin (1), Thugs (5)	4/4	4, 1/2	Deadly
31​	Constable (1), Deputies (2)	4/4	3, 1/4	Hard*
32​	Cultists (5), Assassin (1)	1/4	1/8, 1	Deadly
33​	Priest (1), Hobgoblin Mercs (6), Troglodytes (4)	4/4	2, 1/2, 1/4	Deadly
34​	Evil Monks (4)	4/4	2	Deadly
35​	Zombies (8)	4/4	1/4	Medium
36​	Priest (1), Zombies (2)	4/4 and 3/1	2, 1/4	Medium
37​	Troglodytes (2), Troglodyte Meatseeker	4/4 and 3/1	1/4, 2	Medium

Notes: Encounter #30 certainly was deadly. It was meant to be as assassins were sent to deal with the party as they left Saltmarsh. The attack came in the dead of night, during the gnome bard/wizard's watch. On the previous two watches PCs had opportunities to perceive being spotted and then the assassin's setting up for the attack, but failed. So three of the PCs were asleep, two of them armor wearers who did not have armor on. The battle started with darkness dropped in the rundown husk of shack the PCs were sleeping in. The ranger dropped to 0 almost right away and the gnome soon after. There was even a stand-off with one of the thugs holding a knife to the unconscious gnome's neck. In the end, there was something of an impasse. The assassin's thugs were all defeated, the tiefling assassin negotiated for his escape, given that he could probably be killed but at the cost of one, if not two PCs. So they let him go. Oh, and an NPC the party will join up with later, intervened right at the end. This was on the road, so a long rest afterwards was not an issue. Encounter #31 happened while three of the PCs were searching around outside of the missing village prefect's house and the druid was in rat-form searching the inside. He mostly watched the fight from the window, not wanting to play his hand - but finally coming to their aid when he saw the gnome drop to 0 in the final round. A short rest after this. Encounter #32 was another weird one. One drugged and drunk PC (Rollo the Barbarian) against cultists and he barely managed to win. They were trying to capture, not kill him and he also refrained from killing anyone except a different assassin in that group. Encounter #33 was yet another ambush (the next day), though the troglodytes were part of a second wave. And Encounter #34 came almost immediately after (the PCs had a chance to dispense healing but not a short rest), but they did take a short rest immediately after. It was not "deadly" but certainly hard. The rest seem about right to me. They were awarded XP after this (a milestone in the current adventure), well, after a long rest after all of this - and finally hit 5th level.

 

[el-remmen]

So that's it for now. The party has had one more (unusual) combat encounter (two PCs and an NPC versus 10 opponents + the PC druid who was dominated, while the PC gnome and two more NPCs were left way behind and did not arrive until the final round) but I will wait to continue this project until after the next time I award XP (maybe 3 to 4 more sessions?)

Overall, I don't think I am discovering anything people don't already know. Encounter difficulty is wonky to determine because there are so many different factors to account for. Furthermore, while my players do try to approach these combats tactically, they are still learning the ins and outs of the game, and thus their tactics are still developing, which makes things a little more difficult for them (the barbarian player is the best tactically minded player, I think).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Were there many non-combat "situations" that required use of skills, or spells and other resources, or that caused HP loss? You've detailed the fights really well, and it sounds like the Druid often burns Wild Shape uses to scout.
The sinking ship definitely sounds like a perilous, but non-combat encounter, but were there others where the players had to get their dice/HP trackers out in a situation where they weren't directly fighting creatures?

 

[el-remmen]

Were there many non-combat "situations" that required use of skills, or spells and other resources, or that caused HP loss? You've detailed the fights really well, and it sounds like the Druid often burns Wild Shape uses to scout.
The sinking ship definitely sounds like a perilous, but non-combat encounter, but were there others where the players had to get their dice/HP trackers out in a situation where they weren't directly fighting creatures?

Oh yeah, too many to list, I think!

But I think the biggest example is that I run U2 - Danger at Dunwater as a essentially a long skill challenge (with the possibility of combat - the koalinth were a part of that) in which the PCs had to prove themselves good guests and friends of the lizardfolk by exploring their home and meeting different groups of LF with different opinions, attitudes, and motives - and their other guests/prisoners.

There was also negotiation with a local wizard to trade a single powerful magical item the party didn't have a use for for four slightly lesser ones. The Whale adventure ended up in combat, but started as a negotiation (and didn't have to be). And they also dealt with corrupt town guards in the Styes that the could have beaten in a fight but the long term consequences would have been too dire, so they had to negotiate a bribe and being left alone, and there was a ton of tracking and investigating in the sea caves hunt for the "turkey-lizards" (velociraptors). Stuff like that, you mean?

 

[Sithlord]

I roll random encounters for ALMOST all short rests its very rare I don’t check for a random encounter. Maybe maybe if safe in an inn, but that can go out the door for an urban adventure. I don’t like a set number of encounters a day. They should be close to random (encounter based on geography and adventure). I’m not saying there isn’t the normal encounters when I go into certain places.

 

[el-remmen]

I roll random encounters for ALMOST all short rests its very rare I don’t check for a random encounter. Maybe maybe if safe in an inn, but that can go out the door for an urban adventure. I don’t like a set number of encounters a day. They should be close to random (encounter based on geography and adventure). I’m not saying there isn’t the normal encounters when I go into certain places.

I don't think I've rolled for random encounters since the late 90s - though sometimes I think I should bring back the tables. Otherwise, I just prep the rough sketch of a few different possible encounters (in the dungeon, on the road, in a town) and then make use of them when applicable to the scenario (to show how dangerous an area of wilderness is, because the party was sloppy about finding a place to hole up in the dungeon, because today's session needs a shot in the arm, because an evil org sent assassins after them, stuff like that. . .). And some "random encounters" can just be a huge flock of sheep and goats blocking the road and the info you can get from the shepherd while he works to get them moving along. ..

 

[Sithlord]

I don't think I've rolled for random encounters since the late 90s - though sometimes I think I should bring back the tables. Otherwise, I just prep the rough sketch of a few different possible encounters (in the dungeon, on the road, in a town) and then make use of them when applicable to the scenario (to show how dangerous an area of wilderness is, because the party was sloppy about finding a place to hole up in the dungeon, because today's session needs a shot in the arm, because an evil org sent assassins after them, stuff like that. . .). And some "random encounters" can just be a huge flock of sheep and goats blocking the road and the info you can get from the shepherd while he works to get them moving along. ..

They should be in every adventure. I still reference my 2E ravenloft books for ideas on how frequent they should be for my own adventures.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Oh yeah, too many to list, I think!

But I think the biggest example is that I run U2 - Danger at Dunwater as a essentially a long skill challenge (with the possibility of combat - the koalinth were a part of that) in which the PCs had to prove themselves good guests and friends of the lizardfolk by exploring their home and meeting different groups of LF with different opinions, attitudes, and motives - and their other guests/prisoners.

There was also negotiation with a local wizard to trade a single powerful magical item the party didn't have a use for for four slightly lesser ones. The Whale adventure ended up in combat, but started as a negotiation (and didn't have to be). And they also dealt with corrupt town guards in the Styes that the could have beaten in a fight but the long term consequences would have been too dire, so they had to negotiate a bribe and being left alone, and there was a ton of tracking and investigating in the sea caves hunt for the "turkey-lizards" (velociraptors). Stuff like that, you mean?

Yep. Did the party handle these with just roleplaying and skill checks, or did any use resources like spells or hit points that might factor into how they would be able to deal with the next encounter?

 

[el-remmen]

They should be in every adventure. I still reference my 2E ravenloft books for ideas on how frequent they should be for my own adventures.

Well, I would quibble with the words "should" and "every" - but I do agree that rests should never be guaranteed just because the PCs choose to take one.

 

[el-remmen]

Yep. Did the party handle these with just roleplaying and skill checks, or did any use resources like spells or hit points that might factor into how they would be able to deal with the next encounter?

Alston the gnome bard/wizard makes use of Detect Thoughts and comprehend languages a lot and, as you noted, the druid uses wildshape for all sorts of reasons about 50/50 with combat reasons. In some adventures, stuff like traps or unstable architecture has led to stuff like falling or being hit for damage outside of combat. Other than that, it is mostly skill rolls and/or simple sufficient description of a non-combat action that does not have much cost for failure that just gets a handwave success.

 

[Nefermandias]

Well, I would quibble with the words "should" and "every" - but I do agree that rests should never be guaranteed just because the PCs choose to take one.

The scope of what random encounters can do for your adventure goes well beyond just interrupting short rests.