D&D 5E It's Official! Most of my encounters are "Deadly" (now updated with info through the end of 2022!)

[Flamestrike]

Let me ask you this: Is this supposed to modify how much XP the PCs get? Because if not, it seems like a big waste of time. Currently, I just add up the XP values of all monsters defeated/overcome and divide it among all the PCs in the party.

No, it's just to gauge difficulty. The PCs only earn what the monsters are worth, not the adjusted value,

And I partly agree it's a waste of time. Encounters come and go. You know what your players can (and cant) handle.

Of far more importance to 5E is the 'adventuring day XP table' and getting your encounters to rests ratio right. I kind of wish this wasnt the case (it's good in some ways, but a chore and limiting in others). I would have much preferred a system where encounters were able to be balanced in isolation, and not in the context of the adventuring day.

 

[el-remmen]

Of far more importance to 5E is the 'adventuring day XP table' and getting your encounters to rests ratio right. I kind of wish this wasnt the case (it's good in some ways, but a chore and limiting in others). I would have much preferred a system where encounters were able to be balanced in isolation, and not in the context of the adventuring day.

I never worry about that and it works fine - just follow up with the consequences of trying to rest too often and/or in dangerous areas and in my experience players moderate that stuff themselves. Same goes for not resting enough.

 

[el-remmen]

REMINDER: This thread is not asking for advice. This game is going great. I am just sharing data I've collected out of curiosity and used a site to figure out encounter difficulty after the fact.

Another update, but it isn't much. . . The last few sessions have been light on combat (3 combat encounters broken across two sessions). We have started the next adventure, but won't include any of the data from that until it is over, but it is interesting that the first HUGE battle was during twilight and because of time pressure the PCs must keep going without a long rest, settling for a short rest before continuing and knowing they will likely be up all night and into the next day to stop the encroaching threat.

Anyway, that is what is coming up - what just passed was a couple of encounters connected to the PCs driving out the evil forces present in the hunting lodge they bought and are refurbishing to be their HQ, while befriending the Booka who also live there and were testing them to see if they could get rid of the bad stuff and be good hosts for them (so yeah, the party now has tiny faerie guardians that look over their home).

Encounter #	Monsters	# of (N)PCs/Level	CRs	Difficulty
56	Shadows (3)	4/6	1/2	Trivial
57	Cloaker	4/6	8	Hard
58	Stirges (6)	4/6	1/8	Trivial

Encounter #56 was easy, but not quite trivial - in part because the attack happened while the PCS were finishing dinner and the shadows flew down into their lodge through the chimney and targeted the weakest people present (their servants). The cloaker fight was helped by closed quarters, though one member of the party and one non-combatant NPC dropped to the dying condition. The stirges (or mosquito-bats as locals call them) were harder than you'd think - not hard to kill once you hit them, but annoying and a danger after the Cloaker fight.

The next encounter (which I will share in my next bit of data) involved 4 PC vs. 18 opponents (12 goblins, 4 ogres, and 2 trolls) and included the line from a player, "This is where we all die."

 

[el-remmen]

I have also updated the total number of different difficult level encounters so far in the campaign. The rate of "deadly" encounters has dropped some, but the number of so-called "Trivial" encounters has increased the most. Easy and Hard also increased slightly, but there have been no "Medium" encounters in the last 19 encounters since the last time I totaled these up.

Total # Encounters	Trivial	Easy	Medium	Hard	Deadly
57	10	8	7	9	23

 

[el-remmen]

Here is the data from our most recent adventure "The Wayward Wood" adapted from Dungeon #32 (Nov/Dec 1991)

Encounter #	Monsters	# of (N)PCs/Level	CRs	Difficulty
59​	Ogres (4), Goblins (12), Trolls (2)	4/6	2, 1/4, 5	Deadly​
60​	Goblins (25), Ogres (4), Trolls (2), Cave Troll, Eydral, Troll Chieftess	4/6*	1/4. 2, 5, 8	Deadly​
61​	Gibbering Troll, Basilisk (2)	4/6	8, 3	Deadly​
62​	Crysilisk	4/6	3	Trivial​

Encounter #59 was an ambush, and thus the one I mentioned above where a player said, "This is where we die." It took place in a moving forest, with huge trees slowly marching forward, creating lots of cover but also the danger of being knocked over or crushed for both sides.

Encounter #60 was kind of the opposite, with the PCs having a chance to prepare for multiple waves of assault at an old roadhouse. For this encounter I also handed out for NPC allies for the players to control, but they were all the equivalent of CR 1/2 or less and mostly the job was to keep them alive (with an XP bonus on offer for the whole group based on how many make it threw - of the four, one was ripped in half by a troll while trying to rescue the horses from the burning inn). This encounter could have been significantly harder, but deals the PCs made with some local firbolgs and treants and a rebel splinter of goblins meant that fewer foes arrived than could have without the diplomacy aspect (so four fewer ogres, 36 fewer goblins, two fewer trolls, and another nine goblins and their wargs)

Encounter #61 was on an ancient subterranean bridge guarded by what I call "A Gibbering Giant Troll" - imagine a dire troll with multiple limbs and heads and faces, gibbering to cause a confusion effect and when its limbs are chopped off they transform into (smaller) gibbering mouthers! (I'll post a stat block in my "Stat Block" thread in the next day or two). The basilisks occupied the piles of boulders washed up along the base of the bridge.

Encounter #62 is a "Crystal Basilisk" - basically the mama basilisk having moved on to its next stage, which turns people into crystal instead of stone. She guarded a treasure room. Not a tough fight, esp. after already having the experience of fighting a creature with a gaze attack.

 

[el-remmen]

Yesterday, my Ghosts of Saltmarsh+ game completed U3 - The Final Enemy and I have put together the stats for encounter difficulty for the adventure. Below see some notes.

Encounter #​	Monsters	# of (N)PCs/Level​	CRs​	Difficulty
63​	Clockwork Sphinx	4/7	12	Deadly
64​	Sahuagin (6), Sahuagin Coral Smasher (2), Sahuagin Champion	4/7, 1/3, 4/2	1/2, 1, 3	Easy
65​	Sahuagin (5), Sahuagin Coral Smasher, Sahuagin Priestess	4/7, 1/3, 4/2	1/2, 1, 2	Easy
66​	Sahuagin Champion (2), Sahuagin Priestess (2)	4/7, 1/3, 2/2	3, 2	Medium
67​	Sahaugin (8)	4/7, 1/3, 2/2	1/2	Easy
68​	Sahuagin Priestess, Sharktopus	4/7, 1/3, 2/2	2, 9	Hard
69​	Shell Sharks (7)	4/7, 2/2	2	Hard
70​	Sahaugin (8), Sahuagin Champion	4/7	1/2, 3	Medium
71​	Sahaugin (10), Sahuagin Champion (2), Sahuagin Coral Smasher (2)	3/7	1/2, 3, 1	Deadly
72​	Sahuagin Champion, Sahuagin (3)	3/7	3, 1/2	Easy
73​	Sahuagin (30), Sahuagin Coral Smasher (5), Sahuagin Champion (3), Sahaugin Blademaster	4/7	1/2, 1, 3, 6	Deadly

Encounter #63 was only a potential combat encounter. The PCs were given a choice of fighting the sphinx, giving it a living offering, or answering its riddle. They chose the third and got it right on the first try, so it delivered a message from an immortal clownish evil archmage instead of trying to kill them (this is a hook for a future adventure). This was a one-off 5 days before the rest of the encounters listed here.

The party took a short rest between encounters 65 and 66. Also at this point, two of the party's lizardfolk allies left to escort rescued prisoners out of the sahuagin fortress.

The party's sea elf ally was swallowed whole and killed by the sharktopus in encounter #68.
The remaining 2 lizardfolk allies were killed in the fight against the shell sharks.

And between Encounters 70 and 71 three days of planning a new assault took place.

You might also notice that starting with Encounter 71, there were only three 7th level PCs - that was b/c a player missed the session so we decided that the druid had been celebrating the earlier victory a little too hard and was hungover. He was wildshaped as a rat, sleeping it off in the gnome's hood. Once the player returned the next session, he had "recovered" enough to re-join the fight.

I have updated the total spread below:

Total # Encounters	Trivial	Easy	Medium	Hard	Deadly
73​	11​	12​	11​	10​	29​

 

[Clint_L]

I use the DnDBeyond Encounter Builder, and I cannot emphasize how much I love it. It makes building and running encounters so much faster! And it also shows the supposed difficulty rating for each encounter. Most of mine are deadly, but most of my games only have 1-2 encounters at most. On the rare occasion when we are doing more of a dungeon crawl, I tone them down a bit.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yesterday, my Ghosts of Saltmarsh+ game completed U3 - The Final Enemy and I have put together the stats for encounter difficulty for the adventure. Below see some notes.

Encounter #​	Monsters	# of (N)PCs/Level​	CRs​	Difficulty
63​	Clockwork Sphinx	4/7	12	Deadly
64​	Sahuagin (6), Sahuagin Coral Smasher (2), Sahuagin Champion	4/7, 1/3, 4/2	1/2, 1, 3	Easy
65​	Sahuagin (5), Sahuagin Coral Smasher, Sahuagin Priestess	4/7, 1/3, 4/2	1/2, 1, 2	Easy
66​	Sahuagin Champion (2), Sahuagin Priestess (2)	4/7, 1/3, 2/2	3, 2	Medium
67​	Sahaugin (8)	4/7, 1/3, 2/2	1/2	Easy
68​	Sahuagin Priestess, Sharktopus	4/7, 1/3, 2/2	2, 9	Hard
69​	Shell Sharks (7)	4/7, 2/2	2	Hard
70​	Sahaugin (8), Sahuagin Champion	4/7	1/2, 3	Medium
71​	Sahaugin (10), Sahuagin Champion (2), Sahuagin Coral Smasher (2)	3/7	1/2, 3, 1	Deadly
72​	Sahagian Champion, Sahuagin (3)	3/7	3, 1/2	Easy
73​	Sahuagin (30), Sahuagin Coral Smasher (5), Sahuagin Champion (3), Sahaugin Blademaster	4/7	1/2, 1, 3, 6	Deadly

Encounter #63 was only a potential combat encounter. The PCs were given a choice of fighting the sphinx, giving it a living offering, or answering its riddle. They chose the third and got it right on the first try, so it delivered a message from an immortal clownish evil archmage instead of trying to kill them (this is a hook for a future adventure). This was a one-off 5 days before the rest of the encounters listed here.

The party took a short rest between encounters 65 and 66. Also at this point, two of the party's lizardfolk allies left to escort rescued prisoners out of the sahuagin fortress.

The party's sea elf ally was swallowed whole and killed by the sharktopus in encounter #68.
The remaining 2 lizardfolk allies were killed in the fight against the shell sharks.

And between Encounters 70 and 71 three days of planning a new assault took place.

You might also notice that starting with Encounter 71, there were only three 7th level PCs - that was b/c a player missed the session so we decided that the druid had been celebrating the earlier victory a little too hard and was hungover. He was wildshaped as a rat, sleeping it off in the gnome's hood. Once the player returned the next session, he had "recovered" enough to re-join the fight.

I have updated the total spread below:

Total # Encounters	Trivial	Easy	Medium	Hard	Deadly
73	11	12	11	10	29

You're applying the XP multiplier for all creatures present even if they don't significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter (Namely the Sahaugan which are CR 1/2).

They should just be adding a flat 100 XP per creature, and otherwise not be counted towards difficulty (I tend to count a group of low CR mooks as a single creature at the multiplication step, so a CR 5 'heavy' and 6 x CR 1/2 Mooks is 2 creatures or x1.5 multiplier)

 

[el-remmen]

You're applying the XP multiplier for all creatures present even if they don't significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter (Namely the Sahaugan which are CR 1/2).

They should just be adding a flat 100 XP per creature, and otherwise not be counted towards difficulty (I tend to count a group of low CR mooks as a single creature at the multiplication step, so a CR 5 'heavy' and 6 x CR 1/2 Mooks is 2 creatures or x1.5 multiplier)

1. I don't know what that means, but. .
2. Saying "if they don't significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter" is absurd. Of course they do. At least they did they way I run these encounters.

 

[el-remmen]

I use the DnDBeyond Encounter Builder, and I cannot emphasize how much I love it. It makes building and running encounters so much faster! And it also shows the supposed difficulty rating for each encounter. Most of mine are deadly, but most of my games only have 1-2 encounters at most. On the rare occasion when we are doing more of a dungeon crawl, I tone them down a bit.

As I explained in my original post, I only figure these out after the fact out of curiosity. I am fine with my encounters and I build them out of just makes sense for the scenario.

 

[Flamestrike]

1. I don't know what that means, but. .
2. Saying "if they don't significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter" is absurd. Of course they do. At least they did they way I run these encounters.

Step 4 for determining encounter difficulty:

4. Modify Total XP for Multiple Monsters. If the encounter includes more than one monster, apply a multiplier to the monsters’ total XP.... when making this calculation, don’t count any monsters whose challenge rating is significantly below the average challenge rating of the other monsters in the group unless you think the weak monsters significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter.

Building Combat Encounters

So, for 5th level PCs+, CR 1/2 creatures likely do not significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter. You don't count them when determining how many monsters are present in the encounter when multiplying for encounter difficulty at step 4.

It looks to me like you're tallying up all monsters in the encounter at step 4 (regardless of challenge rating or if they pose a significant threat) and this is giving you a higher Difficulty than what the encounter really is.

 

[el-remmen]

I just use this site (as I said in the opening post): D&D 5th Edition Encounter Calculator

 

[Flamestrike]

I just use this site (as I said in the opening post): D&D 5th Edition Encounter Calculator

Yeah, I was just pointing out that that site is wrong.

Encounter calculation requires several judgement calls by the DM. It's not just a strict mathematical formula.

Part of the calculations is to assess whether a monster presents a 'significant' challenge to the PCs. Mathematical formulas can't do that, only a person can. If the monsters dont present a significant challenge, then they dont count at Step 4 for multiplication purposes. You still add in its XP value, but you dont multiply overall XP on account of its presence.

Sahuagin are AC 12, 22 HP, 2 x Attacks at +3 to hit.

For a 5th level+ party, that's trivial. Assuming a standard party of...

1) GWM Barbarian or Fighter
2) Thief Rogue
3) Life Cleric
4: Evoker Wizard

...Should be killing 3-4 of them each and every round, without expending any resources (relying on cantrips and at-will attacks). Return attacks from the Sahuagin are targeting ACs of 16-18, with Blood Frenzy on some of those attacks so a roughly [45 percent hit chance] x [9] or 4 damage per Sahaugin in return.

With no resource expenditure by the PCs, a group of 6 Sahaugin are killed in two rounds, likely with minimal damage caused in return (easily healed by the Cleric, or with a Short rest and a few HD). With resource expenditure (fireball for example) it's over in a single round.

Generally speaking, they don't significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter, so they should be ignored when it comes to multiplication for multiple monsters.

 

[el-remmen]

Yeah, I was just pointing out that that site is wrong.

Encounter calculation requires several judgement calls by the DM. It's not just a strict mathematical formula.

Part of the calculations is to assess whether a monster presents a 'significant' challenge to the PCs. Mathematical formulas can't do that, only a person can. If the monsters dont present a significant challenge, then they dont count at Step 4 for multiplication purposes. You still add in its XP value, but you dont multiply overall XP on account of its presence.

Sahuagin are AC 12, 22 HP, 2 x Attacks at +3 to hit.

For a 5th level+ party, that's trivial. Assuming a standard party of...

1) GWM Barbarian or Fighter
2) Thief Rogue
3) Life Cleric
4: Evoker Wizard

...Should be killing 3-4 of them each and every round, without expending any resources (relying on cantrips and at-will attacks). Return attacks from the Sahuagin are targeting ACs of 16-18, with Blood Frenzy on some of those attacks so a roughly [45 percent hit chance] x [9] or 4 damage per Sahaugin in return.

With no resource expenditure by the PCs, a group of 6 Sahaugin are killed in two rounds, likely with minimal damage caused in return (easily healed by the Cleric, or with a Short rest and a few HD). With resource expenditure (fireball for example) it's over in a single round.

Generally speaking, they don't significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter, so they should be ignored when it comes to multiplication for multiple monsters.

Maybe in some white room calculation. In reality, it did not play out that way.
If you're curious the party for the sahaugin raid was:

Bard 5 / Wizard (Diviner) 2
Barbarian 5 / Fighter 2
Ranger 3 / Sorcerer 4
Druid 7

 

[Flamestrike]

Maybe in some white room calculation. In reality, it did not play out that way.

If you're curious the party for the sahaugin raid was:

Bard 5 / Wizard (Diviner) 2
Barbarian 5 / Fighter 2
Ranger 3 / Sorcerer 3
Druid 7

One shockingly suboptimal MC there (Sorc + Ranger), but still.

Barbarian with GWM kills 2 per round (Reckless attack, +1 Weapon, Str 18, GWM) +3 at advantage vs AC 12 dealing 2d6+15 (22 damage per hit). He should hit and kill at least 1 with his 2 attacks per round, and this triggers a third attack with GWM which likely hits and kills another.

Better with Rage and/or Action Surge of course, but we're just looking at 'at will' stuff. Also Bardic inspiration will turn one of those misses to a hit.

The Bard has Hypnotic pattern, and 4 slots of 3rd level+ to fry the lot of the Mooks.

The Druid has Conjure Animals and also has 4 slots of 3rd level+ to have fun. With just a 3rd level slot he can Conjure 2 x Giant Octopuses (52 HP each, 2 attacks, with Grapple+ Restrain on each one, thematically appropriate for the adventure as well) and those Octopi last for an entire Hour.

He could get cheesy and instead summon 8 x Poisonous snakes for an hour (sea snakes are thematically appropriate). That's 8 attacks each round, at +6, with each hit dealing 1d4+4 damage (+3d6 poison damage, DC 11 half).

The above isn't anything weird. I mean Conjure animals, GWM and Hypnotic pattern are all staples for each of those classes.

7th level PCs should not be bothered in the slightest by a dozen Sahagian. Id expect them to mow them down in a few rounds with only some minor HP loss.

 

[Stalker0]

7th level PCs should not be bothered in the slightest by a dozen Sahagian. Id expect them to mow them down in a few rounds with only some minor HP loss.

By themselves, I would agree. But the point of a dozen Sahagun is not to be a challenge themselves, but as a force multiplier on an existing challenge.

If the party is focused on killing them, they aren't killing the big damage threat, letting it last longer and delivering more damage. Or they can be using the help action to give more advantage, which is a big increase in DPR for the main monster.

Ultimately with bounded accuracy, its rare for a monster in large numbers to produce no threat....unless the monsters are just lumped in one big circle to be fireballed away.

 

[el-remmen]

One shockingly suboptimal MC there (Sorc + Ranger), but still.

[SNIP]

The above isn't anything weird. I mean Conjure animals, GWM and Hypnotic pattern are all staples for each of those classes.

7th level PCs should not be bothered in the slightest by a dozen Sahagian. Id expect them to mow them down in a few rounds with only some minor HP loss.

None of this accounts for the scenario, the layout of the locale, the party goals, their gear, the history of these characters' development, our house rules or table culture, the personality of the characters, etc. . . which is all to say why I find "encounter difficulty" useless and why CR is only useful as a rule of thumb guide of how tough a monster might be (and it doesn't need to be more than that in my opinion).

You keep saying "should not be" as if every group, adventure, set of characters, particular examples of specific classes, etc are cookie cutter. In my experience they are not and I am glad, because such predictability does not seem very fun.

 

[Flamestrike]

None of this accounts for the scenario, the layout of the locale, the party goals, their gear, the history of these characters' development, our house rules or table culture, the personality of the characters, etc. . . which is all to say why I find "encounter difficulty" useless

I'm literally telling you the rules on encounter difficulty expressly tell you to take into account subjective things like the above.

You're finding encounter difficulty useless because you're the one not taking those subjective considerations into account when you're making your calculations.

Which was my whole point to begin with remember? RAW encounter difficulty is not just a mathematical calculation. There are subjective decisions to be made by a living breathing DM to take into account all the above.

 

[Rabulias]

So, for 5th level PCs+, CR 1/2 creatures likely do not significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter. You don't count them when determining how many monsters are present in the encounter when multiplying for encounter difficulty at step 4.

First, you leave out the second sentence here (emphasis mine):

If the encounter includes more than one monster, apply a multiplier to the monsters' total XP. The more monsters there are, the more attack rolls you're making against the characters in a given round, and the more dangerous the encounter becomes.

Secondly, you quote this section (emphasis mine):

When making this calculation, don’t count any monsters whose challenge rating is significantly below the average challenge rating of the other monsters in the group unless you think the weak monsters significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter.

but then you compare the sahuagin to the party, not the other monsters. I do not consider CR 1/2 to be significantly lower than CR 1, 2, or 3, which they are mostly paired with. In Encounter 73, there is a single CR 6 monster with them, but I think the sheer number of CR 1/2 sahuagin (30!) means they are definitely taking some resources from the party (if only HP). Even killing 5 per round will take 6 rounds, while there are 9 other higher CR threats that will have 6 rounds of actions against the party. Time is another resource.

 

[Flamestrike]

By themselves, I would agree. But the point of a dozen Sahagun is not to be a challenge themselves, but as a force multiplier on an existing challenge.

If the party is focused on killing them, they aren't killing the big damage threat, letting it last longer and delivering more damage. Or they can be using the help action to give more advantage, which is a big increase in DPR for the main monster.

Ultimately with bounded accuracy, its rare for a monster in large numbers to produce no threat....unless the monsters are just lumped in one big circle to be fireballed away.

Oh there is a threat (they'll drain some resources, kill a few summoned monsters, maybe waste a 3rd level slot in fireball or hypnotic pattern, and deplete some PC HP).

I'm just saying they don't significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter enough to warrant trebling the overall XP difficulty of the encounter.