James Wyatt + FR!?

[Kae'Yoss]

FR fans, we do hear you, too.

Maybe, but it seems as if what we're saying doesn't matter to them a bit.

What we get is a set of platitudes about how great those big changes are and how the heart of the Realms isn't changed.

They don't give us anything to show us that the changes can be good. All the changes we know about are pretty bad, it seems like they're either deliberately withholding the good ones or that there are no good changes.

No, I don't think I'll bother with the Realms any more. The sky isn't falling - it has fallen.

 

[humble minion]

Not really sure what James Wyatt is saying there. It's a weird sort of post.

a) FR has a lot of history that needs to be taken into account, both in the game line and in novels
b) We hear your concerns
c) Decisions were made two years ago about the course of the new FR and we're not going to significantly change that now, regardless of your concerns (though we do hear them)
d) FR is a RSE-, NPC- and novel-driven setting and will remain so
e) Trust us

Yeah, I like James Wyatt, but this stinks of damage control.

It seems completely bizarre to me that they could have missed the point so badly. It's the drearily continual apocalypses redrawing the setting, the rampant NPC-dominance, and the novel line blatantly puppeteering the game line that seems to have cheesed most people off on the Realms. And they intend to solve this problem how? By several series of novels, in which NPCs deal with apocalypses that change the face of the Realms regardless of what havoc this may wreak on established games, AGAIN!

From what's written here (and I freely admit the possibility that either James Wyatt has explained it poorly, or I've understood it poorly, or that I'm making judgements based on insufficient information), the FR strategy group decided that the flavour of the Realms is defined by apocalyptic events in novels, and so therefore 4e FR must be ushered in with apocalyptic events in novels, while Eberron has no such requirement and can carry on quietly. Seems like putting the cart before the horse to me - the game line should drive the novels, not vice versa. Rather than butchering the setting, why not refocus the FR novel line to smaller-scale events, rather than continue on the current untenable course of redrawing the map of Faerun every few years because of all the bits that have been blown up in forgettable trilogies in the interim? It seems as if the novels are sacrosanct and the game line is an afterthought.

I'm trying to keep an open mind over the whole 4e/FR issue, but stuff like this doesn't make me any more hopeful...

 

[The_Gneech]

Crunch dictating fluff. Spew.

What Mortellan said.

-The Gneech

 

[Shroomy]

Question: What makes more money for WoTC, FR novels or FR RPG products and which are cheaper to produce?

My guess, novels by a wide margin. And I bet Eberron is the opposite.

 

[wingsandsword]

Crunch dictating fluff. Spew.

These Realms-Breaking events wouldn't be quite as bad if they weren't a very transparent attempt to completely remake the Realms to fit 4th Edition, from how wizards work to the cosmology.

The Time of Troubles did explain some very minor (by comparison) changes from 1e to 2e, mostly spells having damage that capped at certain levels (like Fireball stopping at 10d6 and Magic Missile stopping at 5d4+4) and Illusionists having a different spell list between 1e and 2e, and Assassin not being a character class anymore. However, you could run the Realms in either era with either set of rules and not have a big problem, there was even a whole 2e box (Netheril: Empire of Magic) set devoted to running the Realms in the distant past, ostensibly in the 1e era.

Changes bigger than the 1e/2e change were glossed over quietly from 2e to 3e without a single Realms Shaking Event to explain it all. There was no sudden need to explain where sorcerers came from, or where 8th and 9th level divine spells came from or why Rangers and Paladins got spells far earlier, and the existence of the Shadow Weave was retconned into existence in the novels as happening during Karsus's Folly but it was a big secret until recently.

Now, 4e is so different that a Realms-shaking event far bigger than the Time of Troubles is needed to account for the changes, and the changes to the system are so large that you can't play a faithful version of the pre-Spellplague realms with 4e, and pre-4e editions won't have significant parts of the setting that exists in 4e.

 

[BlackMoria]

Badkarmaboy wrote:

So, it would seem they are changing a few things due to the internet outcry?

Nope. Spindoctoring 101.

Never once in that post did Wyatt say anything that amounted to 'we heard you and we made some changes as a result'.

For the Forgotten Realms, the decision has been made. It wasn't made in a vacuum, it wasn't made without any input from outside these walls, and it wasn't made lightly.

I find this quote interesting. At Candlekeep, a number of people have asked Ed about the changes. Ed responded that (paraphrasing) he is in the dark about the changes and he was not consulted. After the outcry, Ed was give 50,0000 words to do for the new setting.

So, if the decisions were not made without any input from outside the walls, who provided that input because it wasn't Ed Greenwood.

 

[Dacileva]

Honestly, I think a lot of the WotC-bashing going on by FR fans is misplaced.

Has anyone actually thought that this might be intended to be the last RSE, a broad swath job that actually keeps the Realms from needing frequent RSEs just to keep people's attentions? To remove deitycruft and major NPCs who have far greater impact on the Realms than any PC can (and this isn't just the novels; I read an adventure where the climax is decided by the PCs having previously met Drizzt, who shows up and deus ex machinas the day. Seriously.)?

Meh. Some people will be annoyed. Others will be newly interested. Life will go on, and there will be new fans to replace those offended by constructive change (remember that FR 3e also offended tons of people; WotC cannot please every FR fan, or even every segment of FR fandom, because large segments of FR fandom want diametrically opposed things from the setting).

 

[BlackMoria]

Has anyone actually thought that this might be intended to be the last RSE, a broad swath job that actually keeps the Realms from needing frequent RSEs just to keep people's attentions? To remove deitycruft and major NPCs who have far greater impact on the Realms than any PC can (and this isn't just the novels; I read an adventure where the climax is decided by the PCs having previously met Drizzt, who shows up and deus ex machinas the day. Seriously.)?

Intent and execution are two very different things.

Maybe that is their intent. But the reality is that the novel line is a gold mine. And the FR novel philosphy is GO BIG or GO HOME. Bigger is better. Regional and Country level major events. Over the top heroes. etc.

It has been stated that Elminster and Drizzt are in the new FRCS. That means two things - more novels with Drizzt and Eliminster most likely and, they are not getting rid of all over the top heroes.

I don't see them departing from the formula for the novel line because they sell. They are not getting rid of Drizzt and Elminster because those two iconics sell novels and product.

Which means we haven't seen the last RSE because RSE are part of the formula of what sells novels.

 

[Splurch]

Im about 50 / 50 on the changes and have been reading and playing in FR for 20 years. My hope is this is a RSE to help change the setting a bit to make the pc's more important (ie.. like Eberron). That is the only reason I can see the 100 year advancement and the killing off of major npc's so now the PC's are the new heroes and they will focus on smaller events and characters in the novels going forward because lately when I play FR there is not much of a point in low level characters because as previously stated (there are npc's) who would handle anything that could go wrong.

just my .02

 

[Brian Compton]

I think there's another factor to consider with the Realms novels: how many non-gamers read Realms novels?

When the Realms first came out, it was hot on the heals of Dragonlance, which was selling novels left and right(as the New York Times Best-Seller list attests, and since the PHB has never had that honor, somebody in the non-gaming community was buying those babies). Hence, when the setting came out, they also had a major trilogy of novels ready to go. Did many people read the novels, much like they may have read the Dragonlance trilogies, but not play the game associated with them?

Now, here's another question: were the novels always meant to have such an impact on the game setting? Here's why I ask- the first trilogy was set in the Moonshae Isles. Never heard of the place? Or, never heard of it until recently when the trilogy was re-released? Unless you were a hard-core FR follower from back in the day, wouldn't surprise me. It was almost as if the setting was transplanted from somewhere else- it even had different gods (Baal and Chauntea were "interloper deities" from the mainland). Very little changed there in all the transitions between editions.

Also, think of these characters: Alias, Danilo Thann, Giogi Wyvernspur, the Saurials, Cadderly. All of these drove some serious novel sales, but not a one involved in an RSE. Even Elminster's first novel appearance was in a one-shot story- "Spellfire." All their stories took place in isolated situations, much like any other adventure.

So, would it be safe to say that the original philosophy of the novels was not to affect the game, unlike Dragonlance, where the novels very much defined the game? When did this change? When one major event story sold huge? And if it did sell huge, was it selling as much to non-gamers as gamers? Is that still true today?

If the sales of novels are what's driving the whole line, then I think the Eberron people have the right idea: keep the novels out of the main setting.