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Paizo Jessica Price (ex Paizo employee) spills the beans

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Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
It should absolutely come with no surprise, but with definitely a little sadness, the lengths people will bend over backwards to in order to distrust women. Misspeak and correct yourself once you are corrected? Sorry, you're a liar and everything you say is suspect. :rolleyes:

Everything being reported here is both terrible and entirely believable. The absurdly transphobic working conditions described by Crystal Frasier are, in particular, relatable.

While I've never been a fan of Pathfinder as a system (what if 3.5 were somehow more crunchy?) I've always appreciated what appeared to be good faith efforts at producing inclusive content. Also disappointing and not surprising, how the higher ups fought that every step of the way, but were glad to take the credit for the thing they tried to stop.
 




Ringtail

World Traveller
I feel bad now that I bought the core rulebooks recently. I know Crystal and Price have not called for boycotts and they can be counter-productive but it's the only action I feel I can reasonably take.
I feel you, I purchased Secrets of Magic like 4-5 days ago and coerced my group into a one-shot last weekend.

I've never bought into the subscription model, so I can abstain from purchases for the time being. I already own the most of the core-books already, so I don't have to stop playing, just stop paying.
 

Justice and Rule

Adventurer
I feel bad now that I bought the core rulebooks recently. I know Crystal and Price have not called for boycotts and they can be counter-productive but it's the only action I feel I can reasonably take.

It's a complicated thing. A lot of good people put a lot of hard work into those books through bad conditions to make them really inclusive and progressive. There's a good post in one of the subthreads of that long one that the problem is harder than just abstaining from buying stuff, but rather forcing the change they were selling us to become real rather than illusory.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Is the POC the person fired, or their assistant?



Because from reading this, Sara Marie was fired. But is she the POC, or is the POC Diego Valdez (who resigned in protest)?
Her original tweet says they fired TWO of their top people, one woman, and one POC, so I inferred that to mean Diego was the PoC. Which as we know, isn't true. Also, why call out the gender and ethnicity of the people unless it was directly the reason why they were let go? Based on her reaction in the GW fiasco, she seems to have a history of immediately going to "it's because of sexism/bigotry" when there isn't anything to support that.

Note: I'm not saying that bigotry or sexism isn't a major issue; it absolutely is. Just that this ONE particular person has been dishonest in the past, and currently again, so I'm listening to others impacted rather than her to base my opinion on
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
It should absolutely come with no surprise, but with definitely a little sadness, the lengths people will bend over backwards to in order to distrust women. Misspeak and correct yourself once you are corrected? Sorry, you're a liar and everything you say is suspect. :rolleyes:

Everything being reported here is both terrible and entirely believable. The absurdly transphobic working conditions described by Crystal Frasier are, in particular, relatable.

While I've never been a fan of Pathfinder as a system (what if 3.5 were somehow more crunchy?) I've always appreciated what appeared to be good faith efforts at producing inclusive content. Also disappointing and not surprising, how the higher ups fought that every step of the way, but were glad to take the credit for the thing they tried to stop.
No one is bending over backwards to distrust her because she's a woman. She has a history of being dishonest with these sorts of accusations. That's all. No bending over backwards necessary. I believe all the other women, just not automatically believing one who has repeatedly made false accusations of sexism.
 

Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
*citation needed

e: Oh, I just realized you were referencing that time a bunch of Gamergate trolls yelled at ArenaNET about Jessica Price speaking up about sexism in the games industry which led to her being fired, an event most of the games community outside (I mean outside of r/KIA, so more accurately the reasonable gaming community) saw as an incredibly cowardly deferring to loud angry sexists and a loss for efforts at making the industry more inclusive.

Jessica has never said anything that wasn't patently obvious to anyone paying even a modicum of attention. The industry is sexist at basically every level, intentional or otherwise, and she has done nothing but speak truth to power and face the retaliatory consequences of same.

So yeah, you can miss me with the "history of lying about this kind of thing"
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
*citation needed
The GW things was already cited earlier upthread. So is her tweet claiming Paizo fired two minorities, which also isn't true. Inferring their minority status being a reason, which also isn't true to what we know. She has a history of going right to "you don't agree with me so you must be sexist". Not an isolated thing.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Again, I want to be very clear here because I have a suspicion it's gonna get lost. I believe this situation happened. I believe all of the other women who are making these claims. I'm not trying to disprove women and I agree that sexism is a huge problem in our industry. I'm only saying that THIS ONE person has a history of being untruthful and making claims that aren't true, so I don't believe THIS ONE person automatically without other collaboration. That's all. I'm not making general attacks at women or their credibility in general at all. I believe women as my default response. It's only when someone has given me reason to not believe them do I question it, regardless of gender.
 

Retreater

Legend
It's a complicated thing. A lot of good people put a lot of hard work into those books through bad conditions to make them really inclusive and progressive. There's a good post in one of the subthreads of that long one that the problem is harder than just abstaining from buying stuff, but rather forcing the change they were selling us to become real rather than illusory.
Do you remember that scene from Clerks about the independent contractors working on the Second Death Star? I think it fits in boycott situations.
In general, if there's a bad company where the leadership from top-down is toxic, then I have no qualms about not supporting them. It will eventually free the lower end employees from that environment.
I'm not saying that I wish ill for Paizo or its employees. I'm saying that if I decide to not purchase a certain fast food chicken, I'm not making that choice to harm the hourly workers.
 

Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
The GW things was already cited earlier upthread.
See above (I edited the previous post; would've replied with it instead had the forum said there were new posts, which it usually does..._
So is her tweet claiming Paizo fired two minorities, which also isn't true.
She misspoke, and openly corrected herself. This has been stated repeatedly, and you seem to have trouble recognizing that "saying something they thought was true but wasn't, and correcting herself" isn't the same thing as deliberately lying.
Inferring their minority status being a reason, which also isn't true to what we know.
We don't actually know that at all, and everything we've read actually makes that sound more likely than not. Not necessarily just their minoritized status, but we've seen revealed a history of a company retaliating against people standing up for themselves.
She has a history of going right to "you don't agree with me so you must be sexist". Not an isolated thing.
She has a history of calling sexist things sexist. You can agree with a thing that is sexist; that does not make it not sexist.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I do too, but not because of anything Price said, but I'm basing my opinion on what everyone else is saying. I'm sorry, but Price has a history of being untruthful and trying to make everything sexist when it isn't. And her very first tweet to start this issue was not true (why highlight the gender/ethnicity of the two people who left unless you thought that was the reason they were let go, when nothing suggests that. And the "PoC" she mentions wasn't fired like she claimed either.)

So I'm afraid there are too many red flags there for me to trust her. However, there is plenty of collaboration by others, and it's plausible (sadly all too common in this industry), so I believe this has happened. Which again, blows my mind that something so easily resolved was allowed to blow up. If I were an investor in a company that did this, I'd be peeved.
I understand seeing Price as a perhaps untrustworthy narrator, she certainly can be aggressive on Social Media. That makes this a bit stronger to me, though, because despite not being particularly trusting of her in general my gut says this all true.
 

Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
Do you remember that scene from Clerks about the independent contractors working on the Second Death Star? I think it fits in boycott situations.
In general, if there's a bad company where the leadership from top-down is toxic, then I have no qualms about not supporting them. It will eventually free the lower end employees from that environment.
I'm not saying that I wish ill for Paizo or its employees. I'm saying that if I decide to not purchase a certain fast food chicken, I'm not making that choice to harm the hourly workers.
This. The goal isn't to screw the employees out of their likelihood; the goal is to create a better work environment from the top down by calling out and removing the folx that are making it a toxic place to work at in the first place.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
See above (I edited the previous post; would've replied with it instead had the forum said there were new posts, which it usually does..._

She misspoke, and openly corrected herself. This has been stated repeatedly, and you seem to have trouble recognizing that "saying something they thought was true but wasn't, and correcting herself" isn't the same thing as deliberately lying.

We don't actually know that at all, and everything we've read actually makes that sound more likely than not. Not necessarily just their minoritized status, but we've seen revealed a history of a company retaliating against people standing up for themselves.

She has a history of calling sexist things sexist. You can agree with a thing that is sexist; that does not make it not sexist.
She has a history of calling things sexist when they aren't (like someone simply disagreeing with her)

How many times does someone "misspeak" before it's a pattern? If this was one time? Maybe. But she had done this before. Also, accusations of sexism or racism are serious. She shouldn't be throwing those around unless she knows for sure. Especially with her track record. So I have less benefit of the doubt there.
 


Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
Again, I want to be very clear here because I have a suspicion it's gonna get lost. I believe this situation happened. I believe all of the other women who are making these claims. I'm not trying to disprove women and I agree that sexism is a huge problem in our industry. I'm only saying that THIS ONE person has a history of being untruthful and making claims that aren't true, so I don't believe THIS ONE person automatically without other collaboration. That's all. I'm not making general attacks at women or their credibility in general at all. I believe women as my default response. It's only when someone has given me reason to not believe them do I question it, regardless of gender.
And I believe you. But you are the one who decided to bring Price's believability up and drag her name through the mud, when the reality is that she has actually done nothing to engender such distrust, if not agreement.
 

thirdkingdom

Adventurer
Publisher
Genuinely sorry for lumping you in with the right-wingers on this one. Basically the worst thing I could assume of someone, so, really, apologies.

But I also think a lot of notions and expectations of professionalism are antiquated, and have been more often used as a way to stifle criticism and protect institutions than to help the people who really need help, particularly those with less power. Same goes for the discourse on civility. Not much worthwhile has ever been gained by people being cautious, civil, or even professional, a term that's hard to define but easy to weaponize. Even if you disagree--which you obviously have every right to--there's no putting all of the genies back in all of the bottles. This is just how the world is now.
Plus, there's a noticeable tendency for women to get far more pushback and demands of evidence then men. There's even a term for this: Holdo-ing.
 

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