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Paizo Jessica Price (ex Paizo employee) spills the beans

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Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
I understand seeing Price as a perhaps untrustworthy narrator, she certainly can be aggressive on Social Media. That makes this a bit stronger to me, though, because despite not being particularly trusting of her in general my gut says this all true.
I agree it's true. But because what the others have said. Not what she said. Not only because of her track record, but her very first tweet on this issue was wrong, inflammatory, and accusatory of things that DIDN'T happen. Misspeak or not.
 

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Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
She has a history of calling things sexist when they aren't (like someone simply disagreeing with her)
You have so far brought up a single example, which was her calling out sexism and raising a stink with sexists who got her fired for calling out sexism. You can disagree that the things she calls sexist are actually sexist or not. She is not, on the other hand, being insincere.

How many times does someone "misspeak" before it's a pattern? If this was one time? Maybe. But she had done this before. Also, accusations of sexism or racism are serious. She shouldn't be throwing those around unless she knows for sure. Especially with her track record. So I have less benefit of the doubt there.
Accusations of lying are also serious, and yet you have no problem doing the same because you happen to have a different definition of a word than her. And again, you have not shown any actual examples that she has lied about sexism in the past. At all. Put up or shut up.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
She has a history of calling things sexist when they aren't (like someone simply disagreeing with her)

How many times does someone "misspeak" before it's a pattern? If this was one time? Maybe. But she had done this before. Also, accusations of sexism or racism are serious. She shouldn't be throwing those around unless she knows for sure. Especially with her track record. So I have less benefit of the doubt there.
She has a history of getting into fights on Twitter, but I think it's pretty clear at this point that being so aggressive is partly a response to having worked in toxic environments for so long. Which is understandable.
 

Justice and Rule

Adventurer
Do you remember that scene from Clerks about the independent contractors working on the Second Death Star? I think it fits in boycott situations.
In general, if there's a bad company where the leadership from top-down is toxic, then I have no qualms about not supporting them. It will eventually free the lower end employees from that environment.
I'm not saying that I wish ill for Paizo or its employees. I'm saying that if I decide to not purchase a certain fast food chicken, I'm not making that choice to harm the hourly workers.

I'm not saying that's not a valid choice, because it is. I'm just saying the issue is complex. I mean, I'm threatening to drop my own subscription as is. Ultimately I hope that they get off their a**es and make a change before I do.

Plus, there's a noticeable tendency for women to get far more pushback and demands of evidence then men. There's even a term for this: Holdo-ing.

Wow, something lasting from TLJ. I didn't like that plotline, but at least it has become of some greater use to the world.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
And I believe you. But you are the one who decided to bring Price's believability up and drag her name through the mud, when the reality is that she has actually done nothing to engender such distrust, if not agreement.
This is where we disagree, because she HAS done something to engender distrust. False accusations in the past, and then the original tweet again here with false accusations or information.

Fool me once...

This seems to be a pattern with her, so all I'm saying is that if someone keeps making false claims, I'm gonna get my confirmation from others before automatically trusting you.
 

TheAlkaizer

Game Designer
Just say what you mean. You're upset about the dreaded ... cancel culture!
I don't think the issue is so said cancel culture. If you do bad things, go to court and are found guilty then I'm probably not going to want to work with you for a while. I think it's just that twitter threads like that are such a poor medium. A well laid out post, with corroborations and a timeline with a hint of journalistic professionalism would make denunciations like this much more accessible, easy to read and to process.

I do too, but not because of anything Price said, but I'm basing my opinion on what everyone else is saying. I'm sorry, but Price has a history of being untruthful and trying to make everything sexist when it isn't.
Exactly. I think most of what she's saying is most likely true, but with her history I tend to wait for corroboration to see what's true, what's an exaggeration and what's not true.

Oh, I just realized you were referencing that time a bunch of Gamergate trolls yelled at ArenaNET about Jessica Price speaking up about sexism in the games industry which led to her being fired, an event most of the games community outside (I mean outside of r/KIA, so more accurately the reasonable gaming community) saw as an incredibly cowardly deferring to loud angry sexists and a loss for efforts at making the industry more inclusive.
That's not at all what happened with the ArenaNet fiasco. She was fired for unprofessional behavior towards a working partner of ArenaNet AND a member of community that approached her very casually and respectfully and she snapped at him and made some very general sexist comments that had absolutely nothing to do with her interactions with him. Following that, obviously, she got swamped under tons and tons of hateful message from the part of the video game community we'd prefer not to engage with. I work in the industry, and if one of my employees (man or woman) replied like she did on twitter or something while proudly representing the company, there would be some serious discipline.

That being said, you're entirely right in saying that there's sexism at every level in the industry and that the backlash that she received (hateful messages, threats, insults) is not right and something that keeps happening.

Erik Mona's displaying of esoteric white supremacist symbols was particularly squiggly to me, personally.
That's the most disturbing thing to me. All the other things are bad, but this one really doesn't sit well with me.
 



ReshiIRE

Explorer
Do you remember that scene from Clerks about the independent contractors working on the Second Death Star? I think it fits in boycott situations.
I mean... I get the point you are making but...

They... they were working on the Death Star...

Death. Star.

I never found the that scene particularly compelling...

To keep the offtopic posts to a minimum:

Wow, something lasting from TLJ. I didn't like that plotline, but at least it has become of some greater use to the world.

I thought the plotline was fine but neeed one extra element; a spy in the midst, perhaps, to make the secrecy more justified to everyone aboard (not just Poe, who I think did deserve mistrust).
 

Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
This is where we disagree, because she HAS done something to engender distrust. False accusations in the past, and then the original tweet again here with false accusations or information.

Fool me once...

This seems to be a pattern with her, so all I'm saying is that if someone keeps making false claims, I'm gonna get my confirmation from others before automatically trusting you.
She hasn't. She hasn't at all and the fact that you can't name an actual example speaks volumes.

I mean, at this point, I could argue that you have a history of false accusations and lying about female creators lying about sexism, so I ought to be skeptical of anything you say. Which is patently ridiculous but also is a stronger argument than the one you're making
 


Justice and Rule

Adventurer
She has a history of getting into fights on Twitter, but I think it's pretty clear at this point that being so aggressive is partly a response to having worked in toxic environments for so long. Which is understandable.

It's also worth noting that her original big fight was pre-#MeToo, which was really when you could at least start trying to make such accusations and have some small assurance that it could be taken seriously. Stepping out into the arena back then was difficult as hell, and her aggressiveness was damn near needed. That she's even online today is kind of amazing.

I don't think the issue is so said cancel culture. If you do bad things, go to court and are found guilty then I'm probably not going to want to work with you for a while. I think it's just that twitter threads like that are such a poor medium. A well laid out post, with corroborations and a timeline with a hint of journalistic professionalism would make denunciations like this much more accessible, easy to read and to process.

Twitter is a poor medium, though I think it does provide the ability for others to join in with confirmations/denials. It has already happened several time in her thread (which she quote-tweets). Of course, this continues to make it even more difficult to decipher, but sometimes you gotta use the medium you have. Going out on Twitter is going to reach a lot more people than a blog post.

Wait...what!?

It's in the middle. When you reach saintly-looking picture, you'll know you're there. To put it mildly, it's not a great look.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
She hasn't. She hasn't at all and the fact that you can't name an actual example speaks volumes.

I mean, at this point, I could argue that you have a history of false accusations and lying about female creators lying about sexism, so I ought to be skeptical of anything you say. Which is patently ridiculous but also is a strong argument than the one you're making
I've already named the examples. The fact you're ignoring them can't be helped from me. We have concrete proof of this happening more than once, including the very first post in this thread of her tweet.

Also, while anger is justified, it's not justified to accuse others of serious offenses they never did just because you're angry. You (general you) lose all high ground by doing so.
 

Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
Wait...what!?
Yeah there's a whole lot of bad going on here at a lot of different levels. Meanwhile, it's often pointed out in these stories that Mora was the more reasonable manager between he and Jeff. Which is just...

pokemon GIF
 

Justice and Rule

Adventurer
I mean... I get the point you are making but...

They... they were working on the Death Star...

Death. Star.

I never found the that scene particularly compelling...

To keep the offtopic posts to a minimum:



I thought the plotline was fine but neeed one extra element; a spy in the midst, perhaps, to make the secrecy more justified to everyone aboard (not just Poe, who I think did deserve mistrust).

Actually, I think it's probably a better comparison to the first Death Star, where Vader gets away and nothing happens to Palpatine. At the end, the complexity comes from the fact there's a lot of good people at the bottom and in the middle, while the most insulated parts of the company are the most problematic. The stuff that got through was actually earnest... but it's from people who were fighting the bad top-down corporate culture. And they are the most likely to become casualties of bad sales.

Again, it's valid to just boycott the company. Definitely sends a message. Just not sure it's going to hit the people we want it to. But on the other hand, there's not many ways to hit those people, either.
 

I've already named the examples. The fact you're ignoring them can't be helped from me. We have concrete proof of this happening more than once, including the very first post in this thread of her tweet.

Also, while anger is justified, it's not justified to accuse others of serious offenses they never did just because you're angry. You (general you) lose all high ground by doing so.
Some of the examples seem to be matters of interpretation? Sexism and other forms of prejudice sometimes come in forms that are explicit and that can be documented and verified, but in most cases remain implicit.
 

dave2008

Legend
I've already named the examples. The fact you're ignoring them can't be helped from me. We have concrete proof of this happening more than once, including the very first post in this thread of her tweet.
I'm really not trying to get into the middle of this argument, and I see your point, but I have read through this thread and I did not notice you posting any examples, except the original tweet. So I feel it is probably easy to miss without intentionally "ignoring" them.
 
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Gradine

Final Form (they/them)
I've already named the examples. The fact you're ignoring them can't be helped from me. We have concrete proof of this happening more than once, including the very first post in this thread of her tweet.
You've given two examples, one of which was not at all a lie, the other of which was a mistake that later corrected, and you only insist was a lie because of her "history" of lying, which again to my understanding only includes the earlier "lie" regarding the issues with ArenaNET (Guild Wars) which I have already addressed and which was an actually example of sexism in the industry at work. So again I ask, name the supposedly "proven" lies, or drop the baseless accusations. You cannot seem to name an actual example to stands up to any kind of scrutiny at all.
Also, while anger is justified, it's not justified to accuse others of serious offenses they never did just because you're angry. You (general you) lose all high ground by doing so.
That's not what's going on here, nor was it was going on with ArenaNET. Every accusation here seems incredibly believable. Also... if the anger is justified, it's because the justification is that the series offenses actually occurred... the anger isn't justified at all if the accusations are false! You cannot have it both ways.
 

Her whole account strikes true because the picture of incompetent and hostile upper management, including individuals who abuse their power is eminently relatable. Especially in a field like gaming, the idea that employees should be "grateful" to get to work on these products, rather than respected for their labor, seems like a widely held position by upper management. This includes the dynamic of these companies being dominated by white men. How many other companies in the wider field of gaming (i.e. including video game companies) display these same tendencies? Have we not seen what just went down at Blizzard? The way that women in gaming have been harassed over years on social media (and elsewhere)?
 

Grendel_Khan

Adventurer
I don't think the issue is so said cancel culture. If you do bad things, go to court and are found guilty then I'm probably not going to want to work with you for a while. I think it's just that twitter threads like that are such a poor medium. A well laid out post, with corroborations and a timeline with a hint of journalistic professionalism would make denunciations like this much more accessible, easy to read and to process.

1) Unless I'm mistaken, Price is not a journalist. There's no reason to hold her to journalistic standards (which are, themselves, fluid and largely meaningless, since they're really just norms that change over time and are routinely broken, often in good faith). She was essentially talking about something she heard. I will always be more charitable to the person who gets information out, even if it's not 100% correct, than to the institution they're trying to expose. They have resources and can even sue, if they really feel like it's worth it. She has...a Twitter account. And this isn't about you, but people in this thread complaining about not being able to grok Twitter's interface....I mean, imagine a skywriter gradually spelling out the words OK and BOOMER. Twitter is how a ton of news is generated and distributed in 2021. If you can't work out what to click, that's fully on you.

2) Courts are almost never going to surface or settle these kinds of issues. Even if these matters do wind up in front of a judge and/or jury, do courts have a perfect track record? And what happens when a suit ends with a settlement that doesn't involve an admission of guilt and where all parties are barred from discussing it further? Unless you're talking about the most heinous abuses, ala Harvey Weinstein, the courts aren't going to solve this for you. The only thing most of us can base any decisions or opinions on are the info we have available to us, however we can get it. That'll never be perfect and we'll all make tons of mistakes based on necessarily incomplete evidence (the "truth" being about as relative as anything can be), but that's the best we can do.
 

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