Paizo Jessica Price (ex Paizo employee) spills the beans

[Morrus]

Hello folks! Let me put this out there — this thread is not about the personal character of Jessica Price, and is not going to be. We’re not that type of website. Drop that line of conversation, please, and focus on the topic at hand.

 

[Gradine]

I was also going to be the bigger person and not point out the irony of being mansplained what is and isn't mansplaining and what is or isn't acceptable for a woman to take offense to, but this has really gotten on my last nerve.

I'm going to take a break from this, because we should be talking about the horrible work environment being put on display by Paizo and not relitigating past black marks on gaming's already dark history of sexism, nor on one man's quixotic attempt to defame and discredit a very specific female working in the industry.

 

[billd91]

I have read the Twitter exchange, and that is exactly what happened. The man did not disagree with her, she complained about her work and a man gave her unsolicited advice, incredibly basic at that, as if she didn't have a clue how to do any part of her job at all. That is manspalining, and Price was completely justified in complaining about it.

Obviously, people have different perspectives on this. For example, I don't sign on to your interpretation of the Twitter exchange at all. To me, it look an awful lot like Price is holding forth on a topic, normal enough on the internet, on a discussion-based medium. Deroir, being interested in the topic and a fan of Price's, chimes in to discuss. That doesn't smack of mansplaining to me. That looks to me more like wanting to discuss a favorite topic but having a somewhat divergent take.
Your perspective is your own, but it's not necessarily the best fitting description for all observers.

 

[Gradine]

I'll not begrudge any man their flawed understanding of what mansplaining is and how awful it is to be subjected to, especially when the man in question looks like (and probably thinks they're being) friendly and helpful because there's no way to confront without looking like the bad guy.

 

[dave2008]

The guild wars thing was already posted, so I didn't need to repost it again. In that example, she called someone paid to pay GW games a sexist for simply disagreeing with her. That's why she was fired from there. I don't think Gradine has followed that link and read the twitter exchanges that prompted that scenario, because their responses to me aren't accurate as to what happened, as was also pointed out to them a few posts above by another user.

I did see the a post about the arena wars, but I didn't realize you had posted it or talked about it. I don't really care either, I was just pointing out that it could be honestly missed that you had posted such information.

Now, I hardly think two accusations make much of a track record, but I pretty much always want corroborating evidence myself (regardless of the poster or the number of posts). It is to easy to mistaken about a great many things.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say you want collaborative sources before you automatically believe them.

That's how misinformation spreads, and once it's out, it's hard to close the barn door.

I agree.

 

[billd91]

Okay, it looks like we need a Mansplaining 101 lesson.

At the basic level, mansplaining is when a man corrects a woman or otherwise attempts to talk to her or teach her about something she already knows. The implication is that the woman must not know this thing and you, the very intelligent man, must teach her the correct thing.

How do you tell the difference between mansplaining and disagreeing?

 

[Sacrosanct]

I did see the a post about the arena wars, but I didn't realize you had posted it or talked about it. I don't really care either, I was just pointing out that it could be honestly missed that you had posted such information.

Now, I hardly think two accusations make much of a track record, but I pretty much always want corroborating evidence myself (regardless of the poster or the number of posts). It is to easy to mistaken about a great many things.

I agree.

Fast moving thread + contentious and emotional topic = easy to miss things. I'm just as guilty. Especially since my internet went down for the past couple hours and was reading/responding on my phone. I could have used better judgement, and I apologize for my contribution. FWIW, I actually have a lot of respect for everyone who has posted so far.

I'll just say that I agree that management at PAIZO seems to have some very alarming and concerning issues going on.

 

[darjr]

Well, I didn't know Vic had such violent tendencies. That's horrific. And apparently it wasn't a big secret either.

 

[Gradine]

How do you tell the difference between mansplaining and disagreeing?

One involves underestimating the intelligence and knowledge of the woman they're responding to, and the other involves engaging as intellectual equals.

 

[dave2008]

I mean, you obviously have a personal stake in defaming Jessica Price specifically at all costs, and while I can speculate as to why, that's not helpful to anybody.

I see your point in a lot of your arguments, but I think this is taking it too far. @Sacrosanct has an opinion that they formed based on their interpretation of the evidence. You have a different opinion on the evidence. It is not uncommon for people to disagree what evidence is telling us. That is not a personal stake in defaming Price, IMO.

 

[billd91]

One involves underestimating the intelligence and knowledge of the woman they're responding to, and the other involves engaging as intellectual equals.

Why do you think Deroir's comment was the former and not the latter?

 

[dave2008]

Fast moving thread + contentious and emotional topic = easy to miss things. I'm just as guilty. Especially since my internet went down for the past couple hours and was reading/responding on my phone.

No worries, I think you have been respectful and thoughtful in your discussion.

I could have used better judgement, and I apologize for my contribution.

I feel I my have to the same if I keep responding! It is so easy to get turnaround in these discussions. I should drop out before I get to that point (if I haven't already).

 

[Gradine]

I see your point in a lot of your arguments, but I think this is taking it too far. @Sacrosanct has an opinion that they formed based on their interpretation of the evidence. You have a different opinion on the evidence. It is not uncommon for people to disagree what evidence is telling us. That is not a personal stake in defaming Price.

You're right, of course, and I do owe @Sacrosanct an apology. As a woman with grandiose designs of one day maybe getting to work in gaming, Price has always been someone I have looked up to, as someone who was never afraid to stand up for herself and stick by her principles. It felt incredibly unfair to see her singled out in the way she was in this thread, and I still vigorously disagree with the characterization being put forward.

I will say that as a trans woman (and especially one that transitioned relatively later, in my early 30's) I have a unique perspective on being mansplaining because I've been on both ends of it. When I thought I was a man I used to pull this crap all the time, and I always genuinely thought I was being helpful and a great ally. Then when people start doing the same thing to you and you start to realize the pattern and how bad it makes you feel... it just sucks, and I don't think anyone who has had to put up with it should have to put up with the amount of abuse and defamation that she's received.

 

[Retreater]

I have a feeling that this is a disastrous time for Paizo to be losing fans and subscribers. I hope they take steps to improve their work environment and the way they treat their employees. A company in this industry will not last long without fans.

 

[darjr]

Edit : this may be only related and not directly.

paizo.com - Forums / Paizo: General Discussion: Let me make this clear

Lulu Pellazar
Another resignation in support.

I'd hate to go into the job market at the moment. Especially in gaming.

I'm not sure if someone here said it or someplace else. Look for any patreons or other ways to support these folk if so inclined. That goes for the folks that still work there, if you don't feel like supporting Paizo itself.

 

[delericho]

Well, this all sucks. I cancelled my remaining subscriptions when they moved to 2nd Ed, but otherwise this would be the trigger for that. A real shame - Paizo were always a company I regarded very highly, but they don't come out of this at all well (to put it mildly).

 

[Gradine]

One involves underestimating the intelligence and knowledge of the woman they're responding to, and the other involves engaging as intellectual equals

Why do you think Deroir's comment was the former and not the latter?

The assumption of being an intellectual equal within the field, first and foremost.

There's been mentions of Deroir being a colleague in the field, but that's not at all accurate. Deroir is Twitch streamer, a popular one, but not exactly a professional writer, or anyone who actually works on making games. So, pure disagreement can be mansplaining if the man and female are hilariously unbalanced in terms of depth of knowledge and experience in the topic at hand. As was the case here.

Second, there was the inference. He is correcting her "implication" that the problem with writing comes down to the MMORPG genre itself. However, she implied no such thing; he is trying to correct her on something he thinks she said.

The implication here is that he knows much better than her, or that he knows something about games writing that she doesn't. Even if that wasn't his intent, the imbalance on their actual experience on the subject makes the exchange incredibly demeaning.

Again, this guy, who plays games, is correcting this professional writer, based on something she didn't even outright say. He had to reach disagree at all.

Not to say that this is a bad guy at all; as I mentioned it was something even I used to do all the time. But if you've not been on the receiving end of it, you can't possibly know how it feels. I have been, so believe me when I say, one last time, that the anger in this instance was completely justified.

 

[Sacrosanct]

You're right, of course, and I do owe @Sacrosanct an apology. As a woman with grandiose designs of one day maybe getting to work in gaming, Price has always been someone I have looked up to, as someone who was never afraid to stand up for herself and stick by her principles. It felt incredibly unfair to see her singled out in the way she was in this thread, and I still vigorously disagree with the characterization being put forward.

I will say that as a trans woman (and especially one that transitioned relatively later, in my early 30's) I have a unique perspective on being mansplaining because I've been on both ends of it. When I thought I was a man I used to pull this crap all the time, and I always genuinely thought I was being helpful and a great ally. Then when people start doing the same thing to you and you start to realize the pattern and how bad it makes you feel... it just sucks, and I don't think anyone who has had to put up with it should have to put up with the amount of abuse and defamation that she's received.

One of the reasons I pulled out of the conversation is because I saw it going somewhere that may have caused damage in relationships. I understand better why you commented like you did with this post. And even if we disagree, I want to make it clear that I do respect you, and have learned a lot (especially over the past 2 years) from you in how to question some of my own preconceived notions. So regardless of how this thread turned out, I actually have listened to a lot of what you've been saying over the years and tried to better take into account your experiences to be more open minded myself.

Just wanted to throw that out, because I felt it important. And I apologize for being snarky myself. And really, the whole thing is fairly moot anyway, because the main topic is the poor management from Paizo's side. Maybe they'll make the green list now....(if you don't know, don't ask lol).

 

[TheAlkaizer]

Maybe they'll make the green list now....(if you don't know, don't ask lol).

I had to stop myself multiple times to ask if Paizo finally had made it in the green list.

 

[Malmuria]

How do you tell the difference between mansplaining and disagreeing?

Prejudice can often be implicit or otherwise difficult to discern. It is not always, or often, someone hurling slurs or physical harassment or violence. In a corporate context, it could be not being promoted, one's ideas not being taken seriously, getting talked over in meetings, etc. A company isn't going to say to someone that they are not being promoted or are being fired because they are a minority, that would be crazy. And someone "mansplaining" might not be aware that they are doing it, that is, might not be aware that the way that they disagree with a women is *different than the way they would disagree with a man. Or, you can see the way Orion Black was marginalized from decision making at wotc, and they were not even really alleging malicious intent.

That being said, some of the stuff she is saying about paizo management is pretty explicit! I mean, JFC: