Unearthed Arcana June Unearthed Arcana: Druid Shepherd, Fighter Cavalier, and Paladin of Conquest

The latest Unearthed Arcana from Mearls and Crawford revisits four subclasses from earlier UA articles. "Part of the fun of playtesting is seeing how feedback and play can push a design in new directions. In this month’s Unearthed Arcana, we revisit class material that appeared in previous installments: four subclasses for various classes, along with Eldritch Invocations for the warlock. This material was all popular, and the revisions to it were driven by feedback that thousands of you provided in surveys. The updated subclasses are the druid’s Circle of the Shepherd, the fighter’s Cavalier, the paladin’s Oath of Conquest, and the warlock’s Celestial (formerly known as the Undying Light). One of the main pieces of feedback we got about the Eldritch Invocations is that most players didn’t want them exclusive to particular Otherworldly Patron options, so we’ve opened them up to more warlocks, tweaked them, and cut the least popular ones."

​

 

[R_Chance]

You are clearly confusing 'turn' for 'round'. I can see why it would be hard to grok given that.


Me too! I don't have a problem grokking it, though. I try not to look at 5e through previous-edition-colored glasses. It helps.

*sigh* It's a bit odd. The PHB (page 189) says:

"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."


I wasn't sure if you could react at the end of your turn or not at all until your next turn when you would get the ordinary range of actions / movement / reactions.
Then Sage Advice says:

"A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight."

Now, I know a reaction can take place during another characters turn, but does this mean no reactions at all. No reactions until after your turn ends but after is OK with you getting / not getting a reaction based on your turn order (during another characters turn). Or what. I don't find it as clear as you. Is this something they have otherwise ruled on? Or am I making this more complex than it is? Or stick with my own view?

 

[Satyrn]

Now, I know a reaction can take place during another characters turn, but does this mean . . . No reactions until after your turn ends but after is OK with you getting / not getting a reaction based on your turn order (during another characters turn).

This, if I understand you, is the way I read it.

 

[Flamestrike]

I know what a Reaction is. When surprised you have no Actions that turn, but have a Reaction as that turn ends. At the end of the turn sounds definitive. A bit too late to deflect the crossbow bolt that is in you. It would allow the use of a Shield spell which would be in effect before the next round of combat. Maybe I'm stepping in to some argument I haven't followed about surprise (not that this would surprise me ) but it seems to negate some uses of a Reaction. Maybe I'm being too sequential about it. I just don't see something happening at the end of a turn effecting things which happen earlier during the turn. It could be argued that the bolt is fired and in flight and then it's deflected but that is parsing those seconds pretty tightly. Next thing you know we'll be arguing the speed of a crossbow bolt and the distance involved...

And yes, I started playing D&D in 1974. Give it another month and it'll be 43 years. I'm old.

A round is a period of time lasting around 6 seconds.

A turn is when a creatures gets to resolve their actions in that round. A round with 5 combatants features 5 seperate turns.

Actions are more or less simultaneous in a round (turn sequence representing a fraction of a second advantage in going first). While to us, a creature has its turn, moves its speed and then attacks while everyone else is standing still, to the actual combatants everyone is moving and fighting at the same time.

If you move 30' and cast a spell, and then the Orc goes next and moves 30' up to you and attacks you, both you and the Orc were moving at more or less the same time (him chasing you to the door).

Beating someone on an oppsed Dexterity check (which is what initiative is) while surprised means that your turn comes first (even though you cant take actions or move during it) but you will be able to take reactions against the creature that ambushes you (you're fast enough to deflect the crossbow bolt, or cast your shield spell at the last second) when they have their turn later in the round.

 

[Flamestrike]

This, if I understand you, is the way I read it.

You're reading it wrong.

A surprised creature can take no actions (nor can it move) on its first turn (during round one) but once that first turn ends, it can take reactions normally.

Example:

A 5th level Monk (Dex 16) is surprised by a hidden Orc Archer who has just declared a crossbow attack at the Monk, triggering initiative (before any attack rolls are made). The DM calls for initiative.

The Monk rolls a 15 for initiative, the Orc rolls a 10.

Round 1 starts:

The Monk has his first turn. He is surprised and can take no actions or move. His turn ends. He can now take reactions.

The Orc has his first turn. He uses the Attack action to resolve his attack with his crossbow. He has advantage on his attack roll on account of being hidden, and rolls the d20 twice, hitting the Monk (and revealing himself). He deals 1d10+2 (the Orcs Dex mod) damage for a total of 8 points of piercing damage.

The Monk uses Defect Missiles class feature as his reaction. (At the last second his awesome monkiness and super dexterity kick in like a bad-ass as his hand snaps out like lightning to catch the bolt like Mr Myagi catching flies with chopsticks). He reduces the crossbow damage by 1d10+8 (his monk level plus Dex mod).

In this case he reduces the damage to 0, so as part of the same reaction, he also spends a Ki point and hurls the bolt back at the Orc like a total boss. He hits the Orc dealing 1d6+3 (the crossbow bolt is now a Monk weapon) points of damage to the Orc.

The Orc wants to go back into hiding, but cant as he has already used his action so he cant take the Hide action. He instead uses his movement to duck behind total cover.

Round 1 ends.

Note that the Monk has now spent all of six seconds standing around like an idiot, taking no actions or moving. This is because he was surprised (caught with his pants down) on round one, allowing the free Orc to get a shot off at him.

He was however quick enough to use a reaction in response to the attack (determined by the opposed Dexterity check vs the Orc at the start of the combat called 'initiative'), and due to being a Monk, he also happened to have an applicable reaction to take (deflect missiles).

 

[Hussar]

And, just to add to [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION]'s point, if the initiative order were reversed, the Monk would actually not get his deflect missiles. Forex: The Orc has Initiative 15 and the Monk 10.

Orc shoots monk, hitting monk and revealing himself.
Monk takes turn, doing nothing (it's still the surprise round)
End of Round.
New Round
Orc shoots monk. This time the monk could attempt to deflect missiles, since he has had a turn during the surprise round and is no longer surprised.
Monk goes as normal.

 

[Corwin]

This is why I'm a big fan of how 5e handles surprise. It has some subtle nuances just under the surface that distinguish it from the way the last few editions did it. I think its actually kinda elegant.

 

[Satyrn]

You're reading it wrong . . .

No, I'm not. I mean, not if you aren't, anyway

Where I might be wrong - and I pointed out that I might be - is what I understood the fellow I quoted as saying in the bit I was quoting. He wasn't very clear (with a bit of a jumbled run on sentence), but after sorting through what he was trying to say, I figured he was saying the same thing as you.

 

[Tony Vargas]

we revisit class material that appeared in previous installments... this material was all popular....
The updated subclasses are the druid’s Circle of the Shepherd, the fighter’s Cavalier, the paladin’s Oath of Conquest, and the warlock’s Celestial (formerly known as the Undying Light).

Y'know, if they keep going for just the 'most popular,' they're going to end up with the least-offensive, least-interesting, lowest-common-denominator. :sigh: To really deliver on the promise of supporting more styles than all past editions (including those of all past editions), they've got to tackle stuff with narrower, but genuine, appeal, as well (even where there's equally narrow, intense, dislike). Because, well: options - things some may like and others not.

 

[gyor]

Y'know, if they keep going for just the 'most popular,' they're going to end up with the least-offensive, least-interesting, lowest-common-denominator. :sigh: To really deliver on the promise of supporting more styles than all past editions (including those of all past editions), they've got to tackle stuff with narrower, but genuine, appeal, as well (even where there's equally narrow, intense, dislike). Because, well: options - things some may like and others not.

What play style do you have in mind?

 

[R_Chance]

And thanks to Corwin, Flamestrike, Satyrn and Hussar (among others) for straightening surprise out in my mind. I appreciate it. It makes sense now, which is why I read / post on message boards. Seeing others thoughts and interpretations and parsing their meaning helps you penetrate your own preconceptions and come to a conclusion.