Just played my 7th 4E game
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
crash_beedo
First Post
We'll be going on our third 4E session this week and I'm seeing a similar learning curve with the group I DM... here's my question - when did combat start speeding up? I'm finding combats took about 2 hours the first night, maybe an hour and a half per combat the second... does it continue to come down and how long is the average 4E combat taking with a seasoned (7 session at least...) group?
Actually, it's only a 7 session DM; my two groups have 3 and 4 sessions.
In the second session it began to get a lot faster. (Of course, I ran 3e combat extremely quickly as well). Most of the combats go 30-45 minutes now. If you check this blog entry, which details the last sessions a little more, you'll find that in about 3-3.5 hours we had 5 combats.
Breaking that down more, that was:
4 PCs (1st and 2nd level) vs.
* 3 stirges
* 2 kobold skirmishers & 1 hyena
* 1 pit trap, 2 kobold skirmishers & 11 kobold minions
* 2 kobold dragonshields & 1 kobold slyblade
* 1 L4 solo brute (the ogre)
Cheers!
WhatGravitas
Explorer
Ditto. Everytime we play, our group's wizard's thunderwave gets more awesome, as the fighter I play gets more and more effective in utilising his marking!
I started whacking things and the wizard thunderwaved to avoid OAs. Now he throws enemies to me and I pin'em down, whereas the striker pops in and out to remove flankers from my fighter (because they really hurt you over time).
Cheers, LT.
Emirikol
Adventurer
We're on session 4. We've had a lot of "Ignorance Lag" meaning combats are taking forever. It's been like earlier editions where spellcasters had to look up spells..but now it's everybody. I suppose it's a learning thing. I'm anxious to see what can happen with the speed of combats, becasue I used to run SMOKIN' speed combats in 3E..now it's like watching grass grow. It hasn't changed for me as a DM..but the players take a lot longer. Also we've come up with some tricks on how to track all teh little annoying things (for the DM) like Marked, second-save issues, etc.
It's getting easier, but I want to see it run faster.
jh
It's getting easier, but I want to see it run faster.
jh
re
I finished my third 4E session. I'm finding combats take just as long as 3E. If you ran them fast in 3E, you'll run them fast in 4E. If you didn't, you'll run them about the same.
The reason combat stays about the same speed is because there are so many different options for each class as well as the monsters. In 3E the majority of the time it was run and swing. At higher levels you may use a spell-like ability or something for a monster, and that might slow things down a bit. But once the players were familiar, you pretty much knew what to do.
In 4E just about every monster has something interesting they can do. As a DM you must familiarize yourself with their fighting style and the intended movement. For example, hobgoblins like to stay close together and fight in groups. So do dragonshield kobolds. So they will do things like shift together while they fight. You have to remember to keep them tightly packed so they don't lose a major bonus to their fighting ability.
It's little things like this that make plotting movement and power about the same as 3E if not more complicated. In 3E only the wizard or cleric had to think about movement and attacking. In 4E the DM and players all have to think about how to move and attack.
In my experience so far it will take up about the same amount of time for the same amount of creatures. But it should be entertaining for all involved.
I finished my third 4E session. I'm finding combats take just as long as 3E. If you ran them fast in 3E, you'll run them fast in 4E. If you didn't, you'll run them about the same.
The reason combat stays about the same speed is because there are so many different options for each class as well as the monsters. In 3E the majority of the time it was run and swing. At higher levels you may use a spell-like ability or something for a monster, and that might slow things down a bit. But once the players were familiar, you pretty much knew what to do.
In 4E just about every monster has something interesting they can do. As a DM you must familiarize yourself with their fighting style and the intended movement. For example, hobgoblins like to stay close together and fight in groups. So do dragonshield kobolds. So they will do things like shift together while they fight. You have to remember to keep them tightly packed so they don't lose a major bonus to their fighting ability.
It's little things like this that make plotting movement and power about the same as 3E if not more complicated. In 3E only the wizard or cleric had to think about movement and attacking. In 4E the DM and players all have to think about how to move and attack.
In my experience so far it will take up about the same amount of time for the same amount of creatures. But it should be entertaining for all involved.
Ginnel
Explorer
Around 7 sessions in our fights are still taking 1 hour a pop at the shortest with a 6 character party, Its starting to feel less and less like a tactical RPG now as I relax with my combat options as I know them more off by heart (well apart from the fact I was forgetting my longsword's proficiency bonus for just over 1/2 of the last session) and start enjoying the roleplay in combat.
Reasons the combats go on so long?
Combat options for monsters sometimes slow it down,
Combat options for some players sometimes slow it down,
Niggling rules questions like, how can I crawl under the table and hit that goblin?
We only have one striker in the party a warlock.
We have 3 healers in the warlord, cleric and paladin meaning we don't normally have to flee.
I think most of these will pass eventually even the one striker thing as other characters possibly pick up two handed weapons to compensate.
Its been said before and I'll say it again the classes feel different, the fighter I'm playing is great with his marking ability and the damage he's taking makes the +1 attack bonus from being bloodied as a dragonborn come into play a lot more than I thought it would.
We're a melee heavy party Warlord, cleric, paladin, fighter all melee focused with a thunderwave/cloud of daggers orb wizard and our ranged "specialist" the warlock
The Casters don't get hit really, they're still on 8-9 healing surges while the paladin is on 0 and the fighter is on 4, we even did a bit of cheese and swapped the dwarven armor from the cleric to the paladin to heal him up a bit more then back again.
OA still happen very rarely from what I can see, though maybe thats the DM playing the goblins and kobolds as cowardly rather than a mechanical thing.
Action points I love actions points.
Healing surges, great idea and implementation.
Minions, working fine for us.
Power Cards, working fine great idea especially for encounter and daily powers, writing on the back the ongoing effect and Used is also a good tip
skill challenges? none so far all combat and roleplay.
Marking and cursing, bent hoops of coloured paperclips are working well, red for curse, blue for fighter mark, green for paladin mark, yellow for warlords paladin mark and beer bottle caps for cloud of daggers
oh and bright red/orange card for bloodied markers.Looking forward to next session where with our severly depleted resources, we're looking to ambush some goblins by putting the goblins we've already killed in a couple of the beds, cleaning them up with prestidigitation and making snoring noises with ghost sound and forcing a captured goblin to act as a guard.
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By "combat taking long", what do you mean?
Do you mean each round takes a long time? Or each fight takes a long time?
Because yes, 4e combats are on par with 3e combats as for "How long a fight takes in real time". However, 4e fights are designed to be more rounds. Instead of an hour spent concluding 3 rounds, you take an hour to conclude eight.
Do you mean each round takes a long time? Or each fight takes a long time?
Because yes, 4e combats are on par with 3e combats as for "How long a fight takes in real time". However, 4e fights are designed to be more rounds. Instead of an hour spent concluding 3 rounds, you take an hour to conclude eight.
WhatGravitas
Explorer
Using Power Cards? In our games, 4E runs blazing fast - but we used the cards starting with the first game. Without them, the games would be much slower, I think.
Cheers, LT.
Ander00
First Post
A few observations after I don't quite know how many sessions in three campaigns:
You'll want power cards (not necessarily mine, but you'll want some). Due to printer troubles, I didn't have cards ready for the first session with my 18th level wizard, and things would definitely have gone smoother with them.
Fights can drag on when you are down to at-wills or you have pretty much won already but the enemy is being stubborn. When it comes to that, some characters will still have options, while others won't.
We're a bit disappointed in the warlord. I'm happier with mine now that the party has expanded, but another one (18th level), was scrapped after one session.
Warlocks may be behind the other strikers in damage output (and the recent errata to Warlock's Curse hurts a bit), but they have other things going for them. In his first adventuring day (which saw 6 encounters) my infernal warlock contracted filth fever, kept provoking OAs to trigger Divine Challenge and Hellish Rebuke (Prime Shot was so made for flanking), and still had plenty of healing surges left when the dwarven paladin ran out.
cheers
You'll want power cards (not necessarily mine, but you'll want some). Due to printer troubles, I didn't have cards ready for the first session with my 18th level wizard, and things would definitely have gone smoother with them.
Fights can drag on when you are down to at-wills or you have pretty much won already but the enemy is being stubborn. When it comes to that, some characters will still have options, while others won't.
We're a bit disappointed in the warlord. I'm happier with mine now that the party has expanded, but another one (18th level), was scrapped after one session.
Warlocks may be behind the other strikers in damage output (and the recent errata to Warlock's Curse hurts a bit), but they have other things going for them. In his first adventuring day (which saw 6 encounters) my infernal warlock contracted filth fever, kept provoking OAs to trigger Divine Challenge and Hellish Rebuke (Prime Shot was so made for flanking), and still had plenty of healing surges left when the dwarven paladin ran out.
cheers
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